Classic Monster Horror Mk 2

Donno if you guys saw Mk 1 but no matter...This is the list I'm trying out at the moment, but it needs some tweaking to get *just* there. Anyways here we go:

HQ: Baron Sathonyx
HQ: 2x Haemonculus: Liquifier Gun

EL: 3 Kabalite Trueborn: 2 Blasters, 1 Shredder
Transport: Venom - 2 Splinter Cannons
EL: 3 Kabalite Trueborn: 2 Blasters, 1 Shredder
Transport: Venom - 2 Splinter Cannons
EL: 6 Harlequins: 2 Harlequin's Kisses, 1 Fusion Pistol, Death Jester, Shadowseer, Troupe Master - Power Weapon

TR: 10 Kabalite Warriors - Blaster, Splinter Cannon
Transport: Raider - DL; Shock Prow
TR: 3 Wracks
Transport: Raider - DL; Shock Prow
TR: 7 Wychs - Haywire Grenades
Transport: Raider - DL; Shock Prow
TR: 7 Wychs - Haywire Grenades
Transport: Raider - DL; Shock Prow
TR: 8 Hellions

FST: 6 Reaver Jetbikes - 2 Heat Lances
FST: 3 Beastmasters, 3 Khymerae, 3 Razorwing Flocks

HVY: Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Probe
HVY: Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Probe
HVY: Razorwing Jetfighter - 4 Monoscythes, 2 Dark Lances, 1 Splinter Cannon


So obviously not your standard DE list but allow me to go over my goals:

1 - A mess of units able to threaten many things with multi-charges. Units capable in this army - Beasts, Harlequins (Assuming vs MSU), Hellions, and Wychs

2 - A army that doesn't get hampered down by massed paper airplanes - Yes the DE I have played and done fine with uses many Skimmers like lots of DE armies can and maybe should, but consider this: You fall in the trap of massed aggression in some games. Attempt here was to have plenty of non-Transport mobility.

3 - Cronos over Ravagers may be the worst decision but most games, they intend to form up with the massed FNP-laden infantry formations and get cover from usually the Hellions or Beasts. I think I need a WWP or 2 to make them truly effective in Dawn of War missions though...Or just go back to dual Ravager because I might need the ranged Lances yes?

4 - Why some MSU and some not? I read Thor's argument for MSU,and the main thing I think is a weird argument for his maths is he's assuming 5 vs 5 guys or 10 vs 10 but no 5 vs 7/10? I gotta read through that article more, I just skimmed it I admit but it seems like a cop out.

MSU is good for getting more Transports on the field, which technically is a good thing, but having beef in numbers gives you anchors. And in this kind of army, where many of the units that are a good size have FNP (Hellions should get FNP right away with Baron stealing one from Wracks, both Wych units as well), you are at least as durable as a Marine given Cover, I think that's how the math works. Other reasons being Beasts, Hellions, and Wychs simply don't work well in small numbers but I believe he covered that.

5 - Some numbers:

10 Ranged Anti-Tank: 2 Trueborn, Warriors, lucky Harlequins, 4 Raiders, Jetfighter, Jetbikes
7 Ranged Anti-Infantry (technically can include any Anti-Tank here if you want): Warriors, Harlequins, 2 Venoms, Hellions, Jetfighter, Jetbikes
7 Close-In threats (CC or short ranges): 2 Cronos, Wychs(x2), Hellions, Harlequins, Beasts

So it looks OK by looking at that, but the main drawbacks are the lack of multi-lance shots at once (Coming out of a total of 3 units, lulz) and maybe needing WWP's for the Cronos if I keep 'em.

That's my blurb, have at it!

Smurfy wrote:

HQ: Baron Sathonyx
HQ: 2x Haemonculus: Liquifier Gun

I'm fine with this.

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EL: 3 Kabalite Trueborn: 2 Blasters, 1 Shredder
Transport: Venom - 2 Splinter Cannons
EL: 3 Kabalite Trueborn: 2 Blasters, 1 Shredder
Transport: Venom - 2 Splinter Cannons

Are the Shredders a cost saving measure? When you bust out the mathammer the Shredder isn't that much better than the Blaster at killing most infantry - and is decidedly inferior for vehicles. I'm pretty negative towards them as a weapon in general (though at least they're priced fairly). Eh - I'm pretty sure we can free you up 20 points to get 2 more Blasters, let's see about that...

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EL: 6 Harlequins: 2 Harlequin's Kisses, 1 Fusion Pistol, Death Jester, Shadowseer, Troupe Master - Power Weapon

I usually try not to dig too much into Harlies, as I don't use them very much personally. I will say, in my opinion, the Death Jester is kind of a wasted upgrade - 10 points for a mediocre shooting attack that you probably shouldn't use as you'll be fleeting? Meh. The Fusion pistol is okay, since that you may shoot at a vehicle you're obligated to pop at, and maybe the Cannon could help with that, but, heck, just buy another fusion pistol for the same cost, and you won't be sacrificing an attack in h2h either.

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TR: 10 Kabalite Warriors - Blaster, Splinter Cannon
Transport: Raider - DL; Shock Prow

Fine with this, I lurv classic gunboats.

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TR: 3 Wracks
Transport: Raider - DL; Shock Prow

Really wanted the extra Raider, hurm? I'm fine with it.

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TR: 7 Wychs - Haywire Grenades
Transport: Raider - DL; Shock Prow
TR: 7 Wychs - Haywire Grenades
Transport: Raider - DL; Shock Prow

Here live the Haems clearly. Interesting that you're going for the anti-vehicle/tarpit angle but are also choosing to get them FNP...I'm not sure I really follow the logic. Why is it worth so much to get FNP on a unit who is basically a throwaway because they'll probably be shot to death in the opponent's next turn? I'd either get them some Agonisers (even a V.Blade) or drop the Haems.

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TR: 8 Hellions

Is the Baron going with these chumps or the Beasts? I personally don't think 8 Hellions is good for much of anything except looking pretty for a little while prior to horrible death. If these guys are going with the Baron, you should get some more. Personally I'd drop them altogether for the ton of saved points at a very minor drop in your offensive capability.

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FST: 6 Reaver Jetbikes - 2 Heat Lances

2 squads of 3 is, in my opinion, markedly superior at everything RJBs are supposed to do - they also cost the same.

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FST: 3 Beastmasters, 3 Khymerae, 3 Razorwing Flocks

A slightly unconventional loadout, though I'm not strongly opposed to it. I suggest (hope) the Baron goes here.

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HVY: Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Probe
HVY: Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Probe

Out of curiosity - what in your army needs the extra pain tokens? Most of the army will outdistance them enough that by the time the Chronos is paying out tokens it probably will be giving it to units that already have them - and really you've basically got no units that need tokens that don't already have them (besides maybe the Hellions...and who cares about Hellions ) I think this is a very poor use of points. If you want the MCs I'd take the Talos which is vastly superior.

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HVY: Razorwing Jetfighter - 4 Monoscythes, 2 Dark Lances, 1 Splinter Cannon

Fine.

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1 - A mess of units able to threaten many things with multi-charges. Units capable in this army - Beasts, Harlequins (Assuming vs MSU), Hellions, and Wychs

Except vs. vehicles the Wyches probably shouldn't multi-assault.
I'm also at a personal loss to think of what the Hellions would want to multi assault - even two squads of Long Fangs would probably kick their backsides in my opinion (even if all 8 made it across the board unmolested).
So - yes, you have multi-assault, but you should have clear ideas of what you're needing it for.

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3 - Cronos over Ravagers may be the worst decision but most games, they intend to form up with the massed FNP-laden infantry formations and get cover from usually the Hellions or Beasts.

Beasts don't benefit from FNP and 8 Hellions...they might manage to be a speed bump, but most armies could kill them with 1-2 units shooting in my opinion it would barely slow anything down.
I'd advise towards the Ravagers, personally. If you get Ravagers I may even suggest that switch to Dissies on the Razorwing - I think you're hurting a little bit for anti-infantry.

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4 - Why some MSU and some not? I read Thor's argument for MSU,and the main thing I think is a weird argument for his maths is he's assuming 5 vs 5 guys or 10 vs 10 but no 5 vs 7/10? I gotta read through that article more, I just skimmed it I admit but it seems like a cop out.

I am obligated to respond to this.
1. It wasn't an argument *for* MSU, it was an explanation of what you were choosing between.
2. I discussed 5 and 10 and not 7, because I wanted to show the extremes so people could figure out where on the sliding scale between 5 and 10 they should be. (also, it's a lot less math if I don't do examples for 6-9 every time)
3. And there was no cop out where I compared 5 to 5 and then 10 to 10 - I do think I compared a 3 to 5 and a 6 to 5 when dealing with RJBs, but that's the closest I can think of that sort.

Feel free to ask any questions/concerns you have with the writeup in the thread and I'll happily discuss them with you, dismiss you as a fool, or admit you're right and beg forgiveness.

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Hellions should get FNP right away with Baron stealing one from Wracks, both Wych units as well), you are at least as durable as a Marine given Cover, I think that's how the math works.

Baron's going with the Hellions? Egads...
Yeah, with him in the squad they will be as tough or tougher than 9 Marines as long as you get a cover save...because 9 Marines are really hard to kill (sorry, I'm really negative towards Hellions) I'll also say - you'll need to be mindful how you're doing the Baron/Wrack/Pain Token switch. They will have to deploy very close to the Hellions to have it work without hampering the Hellion's movement.

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Other reasons being Beasts, Hellions, and Wychs simply don't work well in small numbers but I believe he covered that.

Well - actually they do and can, depending on what you need from them. But my general statement was that assault units usually benefited by being larger rather than smaller.

Thor665 wrote:

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TR: 8 Hellions

I personally don't think 8 Hellions is good for much of anything except looking pretty for a little while prior to horrible death.

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Hellions should get FNP right away with Baron stealing one from Wracks,

I'll also say - you'll need to be mindful how you're doing the Baron/Wrack/Pain Token switch. They will have to deploy very close to the Hellions to have it work without hampering the Hellion's movement.

That's how I'll use my Hellions too! As shiny decorative elements!

And regarding characters and units moving with different speed, there doesn't seem to be any consensus at all on how to play this...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/394145.page

Regarding moving at different speeds: The rulebook covers this - Models always must go the slowest speed of anything in the unit.

Back when I played Eldar I had a Jetbike Farseer & Jetbike Autarch who saw game-time usually paired up in a Harlequin unit with a Shadowseer. Hidden tag-team for the win.

The question is which speed they use the turn they decide to leave the unit, all else is completely clear.

That's also obvious to me - You move your normal speed now because you're no longer together, so what's the issue?

Read the rulebook (or the thread I've linked to)
It is not at all clear...

I've read the rulebook quite a bit, so let's go off the opinion of others not words in text then...

Willy has it well and good:

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From page 12:

"When you are moving a unit, the individual models in it can each move up to their maximum movement distance [emphasis mine]... once a unit has finished moving, the models in it must form an imaginary chain where the distance between one model and the next is no more than 2". We call this 'unit coherency.'"

So it looks like you check coherency at the end of a unit's move.

The rule on page 48 also says that the independent character leaves the unit by "moving out of coherency distance with it." Emphasis mine again, so it may not be strictly moving out of coherency, but simply moving the distance necessary to end out of coherency.

Also on page 48 "The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together."

I think that these three quotes show that the IC can move his maximum distance as long as he is moving at least 2" away from any model in the unit.

This:

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Yet at the point they start moving, they are one unit - and you are bound by the slowest model rules at that point. You dont get to speed up.

Is wrong because the moment you declare the IC is breaking off, is the moment they are considered 2 separate units. Of course you must make sure the IC is not within 2" of the unit after the moves are completed.

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Yet he starts moving with the unit - by definition, you dont find out they have seperated until you have already moved away

What he's getting at is he's assuming the unit is still one piece, when in fact this is not true when you split a IC off. Once you announce a IC is splitting off from a unit, he is a unit unto himself from point forward. Same guy, same flawed logic.

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I also check how my opponent wants to play it: i dont run armies with ICs, so i'm happy to play the more "sensible" way which is you leave using your own rules, however you wish.

Same guy yet again, claiming he doesn't run any IC's in his armies yet...I can't think of any army that doesn't have the IC rules for their HQ choice. Maybe he's using Sanguinor or Necron C'tan. Either way this proves this guy is giving ill-informed advice on something he himself has admitted he doesn't use; IMO no basis in these arguments then.

So the thread was basically one guy's (nosferatu1001's) opinion vs. about 5/6 others.

Smurfy wrote:

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Yet at the point they start moving, they are one unit - and you are bound by the slowest model rules at that point. You dont get to speed up.

Is wrong because the moment you declare the IC is breaking off, is the moment they are considered 2 separate units.

Do you actually find this written in the rulebook? I can't find it, but would really like to.

Smurfy wrote:

So the thread was basically one guy's (nosferatu1001's) opinion vs. about 5/6 others.

No, it is the opinion of one person and the rules written in the rulebook against 5/6 others.


I totally agree that being able to move away with their own speed is probably what was intended and is also the way most people play it.
But I can't find that this is what the rulebook says.