Returning player to 40K after 10 years ... 2000 pts army list ideas

Hi all,

Just when you think you are out, they pull you back in... it's been just over 10 years now since I played 40K. Recently I happened to come across a review of the new Dark Eldar and I have to admit, I was really impressed. Impressed enough to go out and buy a bucket load of the new miniatures. Now I have played Eldar in the past and have thousands of points worth of them (mainly because I love to paint and convert them) so I have a rough idea as to the use of the Dark Eldar but I'm working up a tournament list that will be able to face a majority of opponents using different tactics. I decided to focus on a primarily Kabalite style army, basically envisioning the progenitors of the Saim-Hann (my Eldar force) who stayed behind during the fall. I am currently in the process of finishing up the building of the models and deciding on a colour scheme that echoes the asthetics of the Saim-Hann but with a distinctive Dark feel. Basically, tried to imagine just how savage and violent they would have become given reign to their full emotions.

This is the army list I came up with and I would like some input from you guys on it, hopefully it has some basic survivability with a lot of the hit them hard and fast that I enjoy about the Saim Hann.

Kabal of the Celestial Viper.
2000pt Dark Eldar Army List

150pts - Archon w/ huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Haywires

185pts - 4 Kablite Trueborn w/Blasters, Haywire Grenades: Venom w/Splinter cannon, Nightshield
185pts - 4 Kablite Trueborn w/Blasters, Haywire Grenades: Venom w/Splinter cannon, Nightshield

228pts - 9 wyches w/ Haywires, Shardnet: Hecatrix w/ Agoniser: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Night Shield
240pts - 10 wyches w/ Haywires, Shardnet: Hecatrix w/ Agonsier: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Night Shield
190pts - 10 warriors w/ Blaster, Splinter Cannon: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Shock Prow
190pts - 10 warriors w/ Blaster, Splinter Cannon: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Shock Prow

78pts - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance
78pts - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance
78pts - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance

115pts - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115pts - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115pts - Ravager w/ Flickerfield

1947 Pts (53 left over) - not sure what to use the extra points on :S

Comments, suggestions, critiques welcome

Grognik wrote:

150pts - Archon w/ huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Haywires

Fine.

Grognik wrote:

185pts - 4 Kablite Trueborn w/Blasters, Haywire Grenades: Venom w/Splinter cannon, Nightshield
185pts - 4 Kablite Trueborn w/Blasters, Haywire Grenades: Venom w/Splinter cannon, Nightshield

Good - though I'll echo Tordeck about the Haywires on them - if they're assaulting as a better idea to shooting then something really strange must have happened and probably won't happen again for another 99 games.

Grognik wrote:

228pts - 9 wyches w/ Haywires, Shardnet: Hecatrix w/ Agoniser: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Night Shield
240pts - 10 wyches w/ Haywires, Shardnet: Hecatrix w/ Agonsier: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Night Shield

I actually disagree with Tordeck that nets are weak (nets are very strong) however - they are strong for tarpit Wyches, and you're very clearly making aggressive, smash your face Wyches. I'd take Gauntlets or Razorflails to your preference (Razorflails are more reliable, Gauntlets take better advantage of drugs, YMMV)

Other than that one niggle these are solid.

Grognik wrote:

190pts - 10 warriors w/ Blaster, Splinter Cannon: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Shock Prow
190pts - 10 warriors w/ Blaster, Splinter Cannon: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Shock Prow

I like Gunboats, I approve of these.

Grognik wrote:

78pts - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance
78pts - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance
78pts - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance

Lots of things here - I *strongly* disagree with Tordeck with the 3 man vs. 6 man squads. Yeah, a 3 man squad dies easy...but you seriously want to tell me that a 6 man will survive what a 3 won't? Don't kid yourself

That said - I don't think these are a smart bet. As Tordeck said, 4 Troop options at 2k is...pretty ballsy. DE are similar to Eldar...but are still quite different. One major difference is that our Troop slots are actually pretty darn good. I would happily drop 2-3 of these RJB squads to get more Troop options and consider the list overall stronger.

Grognik wrote:

115pts - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115pts - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115pts - Ravager w/ Flickerfield

Ravalicious.

The big danger I see you courting is the max squad syndrome. You got away from it with the RJBs though, but understand that, much like Eldar, the optimum number of a DE squad is quite often not the maximum number that can fit in a given transport.

Tordeck's recommendation of the 5 Warrior/Blaster/Raider is a consideration of this - he's figuring that the core purpose of your Warrior units is to get anti-mech on the board, and thus the lance and blaster are the important elements. Conversely, if anti-infantry is the core focus, there are cheap ways (Venoms) to get that on the board that many players prefer. Just make sure you're not paying too many points and trusting an expensive piece of cardboard (Raider/Venom) to protect them - these are not Falcons or Wave Serpents - that's why most competitive lists spam them up, because our men and vehicles need to be expendable - because they'll never be tough enough to not be.

pretty much they are spot on (with their own views put into it... like the size of RJB) but what Im going to do is lets see how we can fill in more troops for you, without really changing your overall list.

Let me begin by saying I find NS secondary to FF. They are good (and I love them to death) but I find they serve a different purpose, and you should try to fit in troops before NS

So we lose the HWGs and NS on the TB (they are wrong points anyway, but Ill take the total you had) thats 24 pts

Lets lose the NS on the two wych raiders: 20 pts

two shock prows gone (same problem as NS): 10 pts

so thats 44 pts. adding in your 53 pts, thats 97, not alot, since your lowest effective troop choice cost is 125 (5 warriors w/blaster in twin cannon venom)

So lets drop one of your bigger warrior squads down. Now its a 5 man w/blaster in raider. Thats 130- 5 warriors w/ blaster in raider w/ FF- 60 pts

That now gives us 157. Adding in another 5 man warror squad like the last one brings us to 27 pts left over, which you can then proceed to put back on your raiders as you see fit

Thanks guys, I guess my brain is still thinking 3rd/4th edition rules set. I had completely forgotten that only troop choices can capture objectives in 5th.

My thoughts on the Reaver's was to use them as a hit and run threat distraction to keep off balance. Since they are so fast and are able to redeploy extremely quickly. I realize they are squishy, I used to run an Eldar "airforce" and watched the bikes go boom a lot

What are your opinions on Venom's over Raiders. Thinking a little more on the subject, would breaking the big warrior squads into 4 5 man squads on venom's be a better way to go? (Add to the fact the venom's are gorgeous models )

Tactically I can see some big changes from the last time I played Eldar/Dark Eldar

Grognik wrote:

What are your opinions on Venom's over Raiders. Thinking a little more on the subject, would breaking the big warrior squads into 4 5 man squads on venom's be a better way to go? (Add to the fact the venom's are gorgeous models )

Both Venoms and Raiders are viable and competitive.
You don't need Venoms to run 5 man squads.
The debate between Venoms and Raiders is whether or not you need more anti-infantry shooting or more anti-mech shooting.

Venoms vs Raider debate is more towards your playstyle than anything else. Currently Im running 8 venoms and 1 raider, but my thought process is that my AT is in my infantry (running 5 man warrior squads w/ blaster and Blasterborn) and the venoms make up my AI. But if you are running AI troop choices (as in your gunboats, wyches, incubi, etc) A raider is normally better for them so that you keep some AT compacity.

I think the biggest thing for any list build is not the make-up of the list, but the balance of AT to AI. Our AT is not reliable, but our AI is almost too good, so its easy for people to overdo AI, and severely lack AT, which means almost certain death in most metas.

Thor665 wrote:

The debate between Venoms and Raiders is whether or not you need more anti-infantry shooting or more anti-mech shooting.

Well, I was thinking I may have been a little light on anti-infantry. With the Ravagers, Reavers, Wyche's Raiders and the Trueborn I have a good number of anti-mech, I was concerned that I would have some problems with elite infantry formations. Losing the 2 raiders Dark Lances really wouldn't make much of a change to my overall strategy of focus firing down the flanks and redeploying before the opponent can re-position to counter.

Grognik wrote:

150pts - Archon w/ huskblade, soultrap, shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Haywires

I agree with Tordeck on the Archon being a massive indulgence. For a combat HQ at this points level the Succubus is imho your most competitive bet.

Grognik wrote:

185pts - 4 Kablite Trueborn w/Blasters, Haywire Grenades: Venom w/Splinter cannon, Nightshield
185pts - 4 Kablite Trueborn w/Blasters, Haywire Grenades: Venom w/Splinter cannon, Nightshield

Haywires on these are useless, as mentioned before. Don't often see NSs on these but one can't deny their benefit, what with Blasters' mere 18" range...

Grognik wrote:

228pts - 9 wyches w/ Haywires, Shardnet: Hecatrix w/ Agoniser: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Night Shield
240pts - 10 wyches w/ Haywires, Shardnet: Hecatrix w/ Agonsier: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Night Shield
190pts - 10 warriors w/ Blaster, Splinter Cannon: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Shock Prow
190pts - 10 warriors w/ Blaster, Splinter Cannon: Raider w/ Flickerfield, Shock Prow

Good units an sich but you should make it a priority to fill out your Troops slots (MSU style, if you will) before increasing unit size (or add Fast Attack slots, for that matter).

As for Shardnets: I've only ever been impressed with them when used in multiples (ie, on Bloodbrides). Why bother, really?

Grognik wrote:

78pts - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance
78pts - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance
78pts - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance

My thoughts on the Reaver's was to use them as a hit and run threat distraction to keep off balance. Since they are so fast and are able to redeploy extremely quickly. I realize they are squishy, I used to run an Eldar "airforce" and watched the bikes go boom a lot

I'm not sold on the argument that 6 > 2x3. If you want to increase their survivability, you're better off taking out the HLs for Blasters and really go to town with that jetbike move.

Grognik wrote:

115pts - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115pts - Ravager w/ Flickerfield
115pts - Ravager w/ Flickerfield

Hell to the yeah

Grognik wrote:

I was concerned that I would have some problems with elite infantry formations.

Throw more Wyches at them.

Okay, did a bit of playing around after reading all your comments. I have to admit I still like the idea of the small RJB squads harassing the flanks of the enemy and swooping in to take down a tank if needed. The overall distraction/threat factor I think makes it worthwhile.

Here is the modified list:

Version Two: Kabal of the Celestial Viper

HQ:
75 - Succubus w/ Razorflails

Elites:
188 - 4 Kablite Trueborn w/Blasters: Venom w/2 Splinter cannon, Flickerfield, Nightshield,Torment Grenade Launchers
188 - 4 Kablite Trueborn w/Blasters: Venom w/2 Splinter cannon, Flickerfield, Nightshield, Torment Grenade Launchers

Troops:
130 - Kabalite Warriors w/ 4 Splinter Rifles, 1 Blaster: Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons, Flickerfield, Torment Grenade Launchers
130 - Kabalite Warriors w/ 4 Splinter Rifles, 1 Blaster: Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons, Flickerfield, Torment Grenade Launchers
130 - Kabalite Warriors w/ 4 Splinter Rifles, 1 Blaster: Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons, Flickerfield, Torment Grenade Launchers
130 - Kabalite Warriors w/ 4 Splinter Rifles, 1 Blaster: Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons, Flickerfield, Torment Grenade Launchers

210 - 9 wyches w/ Shardnet: Hecatrix w/ Agoniser: Raider w/ Flickerfield
220 - 10 wyches w/ Hydra Gauntlet, Shardnet: Hecatrix w/ Agonsier: Raider w/ Flickerfield

Fast Attack:
78 - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance
78 - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance
78 - 3 Reavers w/ Heat Lance

Heavy Support:
120 - Ravager w/ Flickerfield, Torment Grenade Launchers
120 - Ravager w/ Flickerfield, Torment Grenade Launchers
120 - Ravager w/ Flickerfield, Torment Grenade Launchers

Total Points: 1995

I think this gives me a good balance between anti-infantry and anti-tank while retaining the overall feel I envisioned for the army. What do you guys think?

Razorflails on the Succubus? TGLs on the Ravagers (what will they be close to)?

Other than that it looks pretty fun.

The succubus will be with the first squad of Wyches, the TGL's are there to basically force anyone attempting to assault the vehicle to check leadership with a -1 mod or just stand there looking perty


edit
I had also considered giving the succubus the Hydra gauntlets for the extra d6 attacks but I felt that having the re-rolls might be a better idea (considering my luck tends to waffle about a lot )

Overall I think this will be a fun army to play, be competitive enough to give me some victories now and then and annoy the hell out of my opponents at times with its speed



Double posting is bad - Baron Tordeck

Grognik wrote:

The succubus will be with the first squad of Wyches, the TGL's are there to basically force anyone attempting to assault the vehicle to check leadership with a -1 mod or just stand there looking perty

Most armies will pass that easily - I personally think the better defense is just moving your Ravagers over 6" every turn...and keeping them away from assault units. Both should be relatively easy to do - and the saved points could get you an Agoniser on the Succubus, which would be a solid upgrade in her killing potential.

So you think having the Succubus with an Agonizer & Pistol would be better than the Razorflails?

Dropping the TGL's from the ravagers and razorflails from the Succubus gives me 30 pts to use. Use 20 of that to upgrade the Succubus to an Agonizer & Shard Pistol leaves me 10 pts. Should I give the Hekatrix of the 10 man Wych squad a Phantom Grenade Launcher or maybe even add Grisly Trophies to both of the Raiders?

Upgrading Reavers' HLs to Blasters would set you back 9 pts.

Raneth wrote:

Upgrading Reavers' HLs to Blasters would set you back 9 pts.

Ooo good call

I find HLs better overall against blasters on Reavers. Blasters can be bought everywhere, Reavers are one of the only ways to get Heat Lances, they are the best at using them, and its our only AP1 weapon, whcih means alot in this game, keep them.

Those 10 points can be used in several ways, like shock prows on your raiders??? a good choice imho

Well I played a game last night against a tyranid army with this composition as a test and calling it a face-roll would be a nice way to put it. Now I don't know if it had to do with how I played tactically or if my opponent was inexperienced fighting fast moving armies but it was a massacre.

The sheer amount of firepower this brings to the table really is impressive Nothing quite beats the feeling of watching entire broods just vaporize during a shooting phase.

The ability of this force to quickly redeploy from one end of the table to the other is impressive. Now to run it against a really tough opponent like Marines


edit -

Shadows Revenge wrote:

Those 10 points can be used in several ways, like shock prows on your raiders??? a good choice imho

Actually, this is what I eventually went with last night

Please Refrain from double posting - Baron Tordeck

Tyranids match up very poorly versus DE - pretty much there is nothing they do that we don't have an easy counter for. Your tougher matches will be Space Wolves, IG, Eldar, and Grey Knights.