Count Adhemar's (Yet Another) Dark Eldar Homebrew Codex

My apologies, I had not seen that Wracks were buffed to S4. It certainly makes sense when you see their rippling muscles, and with S4/T4 Wracks, that debuff does make a lot more sense.

My initial logic is that base Coven units either wound wound MEQ on 2's (Pain Engines) or 3's rerolling (Grots) or 4's (Wracks). This was with the false assumption that Wracks were still S3, so in most cases the debuff would not have inherently helped Wracks, which in my mind are the unit that needs the biggest buff from all three 'combat' Coven units.

As for the IWND, on second thought it might actually be quite situational, because outside of Coven fatties there's no synergy with the Cults or Kabals, as they're both full of 1 wound infantry and light vehicles. Maybe it can also mend broken Shadowfields if the model restores a wound with the added IWND?

And yes, with the rate of new BS stuff coming out, a phrase such as "or any other protective field or shield possessed by a GMC or Superheavy Vehicle" is probably a good notion haha.

Sickle Squadron changed to Terror Squadron (Terrorfex Squadron?)

Terror Squadron
• 1-3 Razorwing Jetfighter Squadrons
Restrictions: None
Special Rules:
Terrorfex Fields: Once per game, in the Movement phase, the Terror Squadron may attack with its Terrorfex Fields. Any unit, friend or foe, that was moved over by at least one model from the formation suffers 1 automatic hit with the Soulfright special rule.
Evasive Manoeuvres: All models in this Formation have a 4+ cover save. If a model in this formation chooses to Jink, it can re-roll failed cover saves until the start of its next turn.

My immediate reaction to the FAQ was to take another look at special rules in my homebrew. Split one of the benefits from Aerial Assault into a new ability - Unearthly Grace, and added in a few more bits to counteract the nerf we just took.

AERIAL ASSAULT
The crew of Dark Eldar vehicles are considered insane even by Dark Eldar standards but they are also the most amazingly skilled pilots and gunners, capable of targeting their foes with incredible accuracy at speeds that other races cannot even comprehend
For the purposes of determining how many weapons a vehicle may fire at full BS, a vehicle with this special rule that moves at Cruising Speed counts as moving at Combat Speed. If moving Flat Out it counts as moving at Cruising Speed.

UNEARTHLY GRACE
The Dark Eldar are possessed of agility and balance that allows them to leap on and off of vehicles moving at breakneck speed with little risk to themselves
Models with this special rule may embark/disembark from a vehicle if it has moved 12” or less in the movement phase but the vehicle may not then move flat out that turn. Furthermore, models with this special rule are not forced to snap fire if the vehicle in which they are embarked Jinks and may avoid taking any damage from an Explodes! result on the Vehicle Damage Table with a successful Initiative Test

I like the unearthly grace rule. Kind of a weird name but the rule it self is good. Im gonna add it to my homebrew rules

Can you be hired as a consultant for the next codex?

Dethdispenser wrote:

Can you be hired as a consultant for the next codex?

If only...

I will do some dastardly deeds if that would increase the odds of Unearthly Grace becoming a real thing.

I've been looking at several solidly thought out Homebrewed codex revamps and this is for sure one of my favorites. There's a lot here that I like and I've even got some of my locals ready and willing to let me give them a whirl (local meta is extremely play-as-written-as-soon-as-we-have-rules so this is a phenomenal feat. I think they just realize DE are truly gimped out of the gate and, like me, love their aesthetic and potential.

Here are some observations and hesitations of what *I'd* be doing and issues that have me somewhat reluctant.

This current set actually looks just a bit too strong. Strong and competitive is essential, of course, but there are entries and tweaks that have me a bit too worried it'll come across as wish fulfillment more than balance. Of course, looking at line items directly next to Eldar, Tau, even Grey Knights, it's probably closer than I think but just much more robust than I'm used to from DE.

Here's a design idea that doesn't seem reflected well through almost all codex homebrews, but this one is remarkably close (probably why I'm drawn to it): I actually do not want my DE to be more *survivable and durable*. I don't. I love the idea of a glass cannon. I want them to hit like a giant scalpel and then just blow to dust. Fast, deadly, and fragile.

So I worried that giving an Archon the option of Ghost Plate and Lelith/Succubi/Wyches better invul saves were all back to tweaking their survivability. But it's not. I like those because there's logic in the dodge or the armor. None of those things are really over the top, so bravo. As an example of providing too much survivability: giving Wyches Dodge is certainly fluffy and logical, but I don’t like them getting a 4+ invul. I want them to have the attack buffs that are in place, but not the invul. Actually, I wonder if Dodge should be 5++ across the board instead of 4, too.

I'm pissed about the new jinking FAQ rule affecting gunboats. But, with the right kind of codex tweaking like this, we should get to the point where it's irrelevant. Because if the night and stealth rules work for us our fragile little boats will *not even bother jinking*.

So, I dislike this proposed Night Terror. Night doesn’t show up any more likely than normal but then sticks around the whole game. Seems excessively reward/punishment. I’d prefer increasing the odds of it showing up when DE are on the table but have a variable end. Like: Night fighting is a thing of a roll of 3+. At the end of every turn, roll to see if Night fighting continues. Each turn the target number increases by 1 to see if day breaks (guaranteed by turn 5).

Storm of Blades and Gladiator are both very cool. However, stacked together on the same model strikes me as excessive. I like Gladiator better and would drop Storm when choosing between the two.

I’m not a fan of the record keeping of the PfP as proposed here, but I totally get that it’s an aesthetic thing that most DE players are divided over. For simplicity, I just like the table defined per turn thing.

In general, pretty impressive revamp. Well done. I'll be getting this version on the table tomorrow!

@nerdelemental - thanks for the comments. I missed these when they were posted for some reason but I'll come back to the points you made shortly.

In the meantime however, I present my (draft) final version of the codex revamp - here

There have been a fair few changes made whilst I was typing this all up and I think I've caught all of them below. Anything that's changed from the original codex is shown in red in the document anyway.

Wargear List
Power Sword option changed to Power Weapon and reverted to 15 points
Haywire Blaster changed to 15 points but now Assault D3
Phantasm Grenade Launcher dropped to 10 points to match upgrade options within codex
Hydra Gauntlets changed to 15 points and lose Shred but now give Haywire on a 4+ for each hit
Shardnet & Impaler changed to 15 points but engaged enemy units now lose one attack per model for each shardnet in the unit (to minimum of 1)
Djin Blade upped to 30 points but now has Soul-leech rule

Units
Unearthly Grace added to all non-Coven, non-vehicle units that can embark on vehicles
Lelith down to 130 points
Drazhar down to 150 points
Wych Weapons now 1 per 5 models but can also be taken by squad leaders
Reaver Arena Champion can now take Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Reavers can now take special weapons on any model

Special Rules
Passenger effect of Aerial Assault split off into new ability – Unearthly Grace

Armoury
Slightly tongue in cheek but Disintegrator Cannon now has Instant Death special rule as apparently that’s what these weapons do (according to the Imperial Space Marine rules)
Monoscythe Missiles are now Barrage
Shatterfield goes back to Large Blast, as these can now hit enemy flyers
Crucible of Malediction now inflicts Perils on any Psyker Unit in range
Grav-talon now does D3 Hammer of Wrath hits with the Graviton rule

Detachments and Formations
Added Hunt from the Shadows to Command Benefit of the Commorrite Raid
Changed Orgy of Scarlet special rule for Dark Olympiad to +1S and Rage (or +1A)
Added Kheradruakh option to Mandrake formation

Haemonculus Covens
Added new PfP chart for Covens book
Added Fleshbane to Orbs of Despair
Re-worked some of the Warlord Traits to fit new rules
Added Architect of Agony to Covenite Coterie and several formations
Corpsethief Claw changed to allow mix of Talos and Cronos

As ever, comments and critiques are very welcome!

nerdelemental wrote:

I've been looking at several solidly thought out Homebrewed codex revamps and this is for sure one of my favorites. There's a lot here that I like and I've even got some of my locals ready and willing to let me give them a whirl (local meta is extremely play-as-written-as-soon-as-we-have-rules so this is a phenomenal feat. I think they just realize DE are truly gimped out of the gate and, like me, love their aesthetic and potential.

I'd be absolutely delighted if you are able to play some games and give me some feedback.

Quote :

Here are some observations and hesitations of what *I'd* be doing and issues that have me somewhat reluctant.

This current set actually looks just a bit too strong. Strong and competitive is essential, of course, but there are entries and tweaks that have me a bit too worried it'll come across as wish fulfillment more than balance. Of course, looking at line items directly next to Eldar, Tau, even Grey Knights, it's probably closer than I think but just much more robust than I'm used to from DE.

It is entirely possible that it is too strong. I've not actually been able to playtest any of this yet so it could be amazing, horrendous or anywhere in between!

Quote :

Here's a design idea that doesn't seem reflected well through almost all codex homebrews, but this one is remarkably close (probably why I'm drawn to it): I actually do not want my DE to be more *survivable and durable*. I don't. I love the idea of a glass cannon. I want them to hit like a giant scalpel and then just blow to dust. Fast, deadly, and fragile.

So I worried that giving an Archon the option of Ghost Plate and Lelith/Succubi/Wyches better invul saves were all back to tweaking their survivability. But it's not. I like those because there's logic in the dodge or the armor. None of those things are really over the top, so bravo. As an example of providing too much survivability: giving Wyches Dodge is certainly fluffy and logical, but I don’t like them getting a 4+ invul. I want them to have the attack buffs that are in place, but not the invul. Actually, I wonder if Dodge should be 5++ across the board instead of 4, too.

I think the Dodge save for Wyches is fine now that they get it against overwatch too. We're still talking about T3 models with (essentially) no armour. Without the dodge save they would crumble away to any opponent after the initial assault.

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I'm pissed about the new jinking FAQ rule affecting gunboats. But, with the right kind of codex tweaking like this, we should get to the point where it's irrelevant. Because if the night and stealth rules work for us our fragile little boats will *not even bother jinking*.

With Night Fight always in play (see below) and the bonus from Hunt from the Shadows you can have a 5+ cover save in the open on any unit. This immediately goes to 3+ or better in almost any form of cover. With the amount of Ignores Cover weaponry out there at the moment I don't think that's too powerful but their might be some armies that will struggle against it.

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So, I dislike this proposed Night Terror. Night doesn’t show up any more likely than normal but then sticks around the whole game. Seems excessively reward/punishment. I’d prefer increasing the odds of it showing up when DE are on the table but have a variable end. Like: Night fighting is a thing of a roll of 3+. At the end of every turn, roll to see if Night fighting continues. Each turn the target number increases by 1 to see if day breaks (guaranteed by turn 5).

By choosing the right warlord (Archon or Vect) you can re-roll for night fighting, making it 50% more likely to be in play. You can also choose a Kabalite Raiding Party, Realspace Raider detachment or Commorrite Raid to guarantee Night Fight on turn one. Combined with Night Terrors, this gives you the option of ensuring that Night Fight will be in play on every turn of every game if you so wish. I think that suits Dark Eldar right down to the ground.

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Storm of Blades and Gladiator are both very cool. However, stacked together on the same model strikes me as excessive. I like Gladiator better and would drop Storm when choosing between the two.

You could be right and playtesting may well result in a change. I agree that Storm of Blades would probably be the one to drop if needed.

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I’m not a fan of the record keeping of the PfP as proposed here, but I totally get that it’s an aesthetic thing that most DE players are divided over. For simplicity, I just like the table defined per turn thing.

I was never a fan of the turn-based progression as it did not require any pain to be inflicted. Both armies could literally stay in their deployment zones playing solitaire and the DE would still be ramping up their benefits from PfP. It's a bit of record keeping but hopefully not too onerous. I'm very much aware that the number of wounds caused for each benefit may require adjustment. I don't want the DE to just get powered up fully by the end of the first turn but I also don't want them still fishing for benefits at the end of turn 6! Some adjustment will almost certainly be needed.

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In general, pretty impressive revamp. Well done. I'll be getting this version on the table tomorrow!

Thank you once again and I'd love to hear your experiences with it!

Just did a spot of mathhammer on current codex vs my version, specifically on Wyches. Results are quite spectacular!

Official Codex
I’ve assumed nothing useful from Combat Drugs and FNP from PfP
10 Wyches (100) inc Hekatrix (+10) with Agoniser (+25) = 135 points
10 Tactical Marines  = 140 points
Threat Range: 6” move + 2-12” charge (rerollable) = 8-18” (average ~14”)
Shooting attack: 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved = 1 dead Marine
Overwatch from 9 Tactical Marines: 18 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1.33 after FNP = 1 dead Wych
Assault: 8 Wyches get 3 attacks each: 24 attacks, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 unsaved = 1 dead Marine
Hekatrix gets 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound = 1 dead Marine
7 Marines get 7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 2.33 wounds, 1.16 unsaved, 0.77 after FNP = 1 dead Wych
So after the first turn of an assault, the Wyches have lost 2 of their squad but have killed 3 Marines forcing a break test at -3

Count Adhemar’s Homebrew Codex
Again I’ve assumed nothing useful from Combat Drugs and Crusader and FNP from PfP
10 Wyches (120) inc Hekatrix (+10) with Agoniser (+15) = 145 points
10 Tactical Marines  = 140 points
Threat Range: 6” + 1-6” Run (roll twice, pick highest, rerollable) + 2-12” charge (rerollable) = 9-24” (average ~21”)
Shooting attack: 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved = 1 dead Marine
Overwatch from 9 Tactical Marines: 18 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved, 0.67 after FNP = 1 dead Wych
Assault: 8 Wyches get 5 attacks each: 40 attacks, 26.67 hits, 4.44 rending, 4.44 normal wounds, 5.92 unsaved = 6 dead Marines
Hekatrix gets 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wound = 2 dead Marines
1 Marine gets 1 attack, 0.5 hits, 0.33 wounds, 0.16 unsaved, 0.11 after FNP = 0 dead Wyches
So after the first turn of an assault, the Wyches have lost 1 of their squad but have killed 9 Marines!

Looking at this example, it may well be that Storm of Blades (melee rending) is too powerful on Wyches. Without this they would still have killed 6 Marines and would have suffered 1 more casualty. I'll have to run some further examples to see how they fare against cheap and cheerful troops like IG or Orks and also against tougher stuff like Wraiths etc.

I think wyches should be at least as powerful as howling banshees or striking scorpions. Bloodbrides should be units of exarchs.

In the fluff wyches are CC demi-gods.

Howling Banshees
10 Banshees (130) inc Exarch (+10) = 140 points
10 Tactical Marines  = 140 points
Threat Range: 6” move  + 5-15” charge (rerollable) = 11-21” (average ~18”)
Shooting attack: 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 1.11 rending, 2.22 normal, 1.85 unsaved = 2 dead Marines
Overwatch from 8 Tactical Marines: O dead Banshees (Banshee Masks)
Assault: 9 Banshees get 3 attacks each: 27 attacks, 13.5 hits, 4.5 wounds, 4.50 unsaved = 4 dead Marines
Exarchx gets 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 0.88 wound = 1 dead Marine
3 Marines get 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, 0.5 unsaved = 0 dead Banshees
So after the first turn of an assault, the Banshees have lost none of their squad and have killed 7 Marines forcing a break test at -7

Maybe my new Wyches aren't so OP after all...

Count Adhemar wrote:

So after the first turn of an assault, the Wyches have lost 2 of their squad but have killed 3 Marines forcing a break test at -3

That test would be at -1, right?

I know you've already bumped their points cost, but I think with the changes you've made to wyches, you should probably give them another points bump. My suggestion would be 14 points per model. 13 brings them up to be equal to howling banshees in cost, then 1 more to cover their access to haywire(which gives 5 attacks in melee per model), and the fact that they're potentially obec troops instead of elite slot.

I absolutely agree with making wyches like this, because based on their fluff, this is how they SHOULD be, but I think maybe even 15 ppm would be justified.

I actually don't know how I feel about the hydra gauntlets losing shred in favor of haywire. I think getting more access to haywire grenades would be acceptable, assuming they rule on the side of multiple grenades in CC in the FAQ. I always thought people saying wyches using grenades weren't fluffy were just GW apologists anyhow. Adding this line from the old codex would work: "The entire squad may take haywire grenades for 2 points per model"

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

So after the first turn of an assault, the Wyches have lost 2 of their squad but have killed 3 Marines forcing a break test at -3

That test would be at -1, right?

D'oh! Yeah, -1. Bit of a brain fart there...

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I know you've already bumped their points cost, but I think with the changes you've made to wyches, you should probably give them another points bump. My suggestion would be 14 points per model. 13 brings them up to be equal to howling banshees in cost, then 1 more to cover their access to haywire(which gives 5 attacks in melee per model), and the fact that they're potentially obec troops instead of elite slot.

I absolutely agree with making wyches like this, because based on their fluff, this is how they SHOULD be, but I think maybe even 15 ppm would be justified.

I think a further points bump could well be in order as they do seem to be more efficient than Banshees against MEQ, although I've yet to run any numbers against other opponents. I'm currently thinking somewhere around 13-14 but 15 is not out of the question.

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I actually don't know how I feel about the hydra gauntlets losing shred in favor of haywire. I think getting more access to haywire grenades would be acceptable, assuming they rule on the side of multiple grenades in CC in the FAQ. I always thought people saying wyches using grenades weren't fluffy were just GW apologists anyhow. Adding this line from the old codex would work: "The entire squad may take haywire grenades for 2 points per model"

We will have to agree to disagree on the haywire grenade issue as whenever I think of a Gladiator I really don't picture a tank being her target! That's why I've toned down the Hydra Gauntlets and each hit only gets the Haywire rule on a 4+. I didn't want a single Wych punching an Imperial Knight to death in one turn!

Count Adhemar wrote:

I think a further points bump could well be in order as they do seem to be more efficient than Banshees against MEQ, although I've yet to run any numbers against other opponents.

I can tell you without doing any math(I'm sort of an instant calculator). Your wyches will outperform banshees in every case, against every other opponent. The worse the armour save, the more the wyches will pull ahead due to weight of attacks. And wyches rending can pierce TEQ while banshees cannot. The rending will help the wyches against high toughness, while the banshees have no recourse beyond a certain toughness value. Essentially, banshees lost against wyches in a comparison against their optimal target. It will only get worse when switching to things that aren't precisely what they're designed to kill.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Quote :

I actually don't know how I feel about the hydra gauntlets losing shred in favor of haywire. I think getting more access to haywire grenades would be acceptable, assuming they rule on the side of multiple grenades in CC in the FAQ. I always thought people saying wyches using grenades weren't fluffy were just GW apologists anyhow. Adding this line from the old codex would work: "The entire squad may take haywire grenades for 2 points per model"

We will have to agree to disagree on the haywire grenade issue as whenever I think of a Gladiator I really don't picture a tank being her target! That's why I've toned down the Hydra Gauntlets and each hit only gets the Haywire rule on a 4+. I didn't want a single Wych punching an Imperial Knight to death in one turn!  

We don't necessarily have to agree to disagree. At least allow me to give you a single compelling argument:

Think about something here, ok? First off, wyches aren't roman-style gladiators. This is 43,000 years in the future. That said, yes, wyches ARE gladiators. But in the fluff, they're also slavers, and they seek out thrilling creatures to fight out in realspace. Many races almost exclusively stay in their vehicles. In order to fight them, one MUST get them out of their vehicle. What is more fluffy for a gladiator/slaver who's seeking to fight flesh and blood creatures in realspace than a method for disabling vehicles that almost always leaves the passengers intact and unscathed?

If I had to guess, I'd say wyches INVENTED haywire grenades.

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Think about something here, ok? First off, wyches aren't roman-style gladiators. This is 43,000 years in the future. That said, yes, wyches ARE gladiators. But in the fluff, they're also slavers, and they seek out thrilling creatures to fight out in realspace. Many races almost exclusively stay in their vehicles. In order to fight them, one MUST get them out of their vehicle. What is more fluffy for a gladiator/slaver who's seeking to fight flesh and blood creatures in realspace than a method for disabling vehicles that almost always leaves the passengers intact and unscathed?

This has made me think: I want a Wych chariot skiff. Gladiatorial games sometime utilised chariots and I think it would be interesting to have a cult chariot. Utilise high weapon skill and DE level armour. Although I fear that would come too close to the Slaaneshi chariot with the corpse harvester at the back.

I really like seeing the processes you are going through to create a balanced homebrew, Adhemar. I think it's really good how you've taken fluff into consideration with the rules.

Ran the numbers again but reduced the WS of a standard Wych (not Hekatrix) back to 4.

Count Adhemar’s Homebrew Codex (Wyches back to WS4)
Again I’ve assumed nothing useful from Combat Drugs and Crusader and FNP from PfP
10 Wyches (120) inc Hekatrix (+10) with Agoniser (+15) = 145 points
10 Tactical Marines  = 140 points
Shooting attack: 10 shots, 6.66 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved = 1 dead Marine
Overwatch from 9 Tactical Marines: 18 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved, 0.67 after FNP = 1 dead Wych
Assault: 8 Wyches get 5 attacks each: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 3.33 rending, 3.33 normal wounds, 4.44 unsaved = 4 dead Marines
Hekatrix gets 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wound = 2 dead Marines
3 Marines get 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, 0.5 unsaved, 0.33 after FNP = 0 dead Wyches
So after the first turn of an assault, the Wyches have lost 1 of their squad but have killed 7 Marines.

Offensively they are equal to Banshees against the Banshees optimal opponent (and better against anything else). Defensively they are slightly worse off, purely due to the Banshees immunity to overwatch. That seems pretty much perfect and would also imply that 13-14 points would be the correct value for them.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

We don't necessarily have to agree to disagree. At least allow me to give you a single compelling argument:

Think about something here, ok? First off, wyches aren't roman-style gladiators. This is 43,000 years in the future. That said, yes, wyches ARE gladiators. But in the fluff, they're also slavers, and they seek out thrilling creatures to fight out in realspace. Many races almost exclusively stay in their vehicles. In order to fight them, one MUST get them out of their vehicle. What is more fluffy for a gladiator/slaver who's seeking to fight flesh and blood creatures in realspace than a method for disabling vehicles that almost always leaves the passengers intact and unscathed?

If I had to guess, I'd say wyches INVENTED haywire grenades.

I see where you're coming from but I'm still not convinced. The Wych Cults do still have access to plentiful AT options in my version of the codex so I'm perfectly happy for the humble Wych to struggle trying to, literally, bring a knife to a tank fight. There's also the question of balance. In the 5e codex they were still pretty rubbish offensively but made up for it by having haywire and becoming the best AT option in our list. In my codex I think (hope) I've turned them into something that is actually useful, even deadly, in assault. If I then also make them able to destroy pretty much any vehicle in the game the Kabalites will be taking a back seat as will almost every other unit in the codex. The point may well be academic in any event unless GW reverts the FAQ changes to grenades.

Cavash wrote:

I really like seeing the processes you are going through to create a balanced homebrew, Adhemar. I think it's really good how you've taken fluff into consideration with the rules.

Thanks man! Appreciate it.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Defensively they are slightly worse off, purely due to the Banshees immunity to overwatch. That seems pretty much perfect and would also imply that 13-14 points would be the correct value for them.

I'd heavily lean towards the 14 point side of things, because once in combat, the lesser defense vs. shooting becomes a much greater defense vs. CC, since wyches have a 4+ invuln save compared to the banshee's 4+ armour save.

Count Adhemar wrote:

I see where you're coming from but I'm still not convinced. The Wych Cults do still have access to plentiful AT options in my version of the codex so I'm perfectly happy for the humble Wych to struggle trying to, literally, bring a knife to a tank fight. There's also the question of balance. In the 5e codex they were still pretty rubbish offensively but made up for it by having haywire and becoming the best AT option in our list. In my codex I think (hope) I've turned them into something that is actually useful, even deadly, in assault. If I then also make them able to destroy pretty much any vehicle in the game the Kabalites will be taking a back seat as will almost every other unit in the codex. The point may well be academic in any event unless GW reverts the FAQ changes to grenades.

See, that makes no sense to me at all, for several reasons:

1. Why should hydra gauntlets get haywire? If you read the fluff about them, there is nothing to suggest they should have that. They're sharp crystals that are grown. Shred makes sense. Haywire doesn't.

2. Still no idea where you're coming from with thinking modern gladiators/slavers wouldn't use haywire grenades. The dark eldar as a SPECIES are supposed to be ultra intelligent. Bringing a knife to a tank fight shouldn't be something that ever happens.

3. Hydra gauntlets with haywire are MORE POWERFUL than haywire grenades available to the entire squad. Run the numbers:

If hydra gauntlets are given haywire, and a squad of 10 wyches can take 2 pairs of hydra gauntlets, then that's 10 haywire attacks on the charge, the same as if all the wyches had haywire grenades. The difference is that, in the case of the hydra gauntlets, it's only taking up the attacks of 2 wyches, which means that 8 other wyches can attack the rear armour with S4 plasma grenades, or normal S4 attacks once they have furious charge, because all the haywire attacks are coming from only 2 models.

This ends up making them significantly more powerful vs. tanks, so if your intention was to make them less anti-tanky than they were before, this would be a failure.

But true, this discussion WOULD be academic, were they not going to change their ridiculous grenade ruling. That said, if they change no other rulings, they will change the grenade ruling. It's had more negative feedback than any other individual ruling in any of the 38 FAQ pages.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I'd heavily lean towards the 14 point side of things, because once in combat, the lesser defense vs. shooting becomes a much greater defense vs. CC, since wyches have a 4+ invuln save compared to the banshee's 4+ armour save.

I agree and I've adjusted to 14ppm.

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1. Why should hydra gauntlets get haywire? If you read the fluff about them, there is nothing to suggest they should have that. They're sharp crystals that are grown. Shred makes sense. Haywire doesn't.

The fluff for the Hydra Gauntlet says "Hydra gauntlets are made from a flexible weave of semi-sentient, extraplanar crystal. Smooth and glassy when inert, a hydra gauntlet can be compelled by a strong-willed wearer to sprout and regrow an impossible profusion of lethal crystalline blades". I've simply added "that randomly generate a massive electromagnetic charge" on the end. Maybe not particularly elegant but in an infinite universe all things are possible. I also couldn't really justify razorflails or shardnet/impaler as having haywire.

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2. Still no idea where you're coming from with thinking modern gladiators/slavers wouldn't use haywire grenades. The dark eldar as a SPECIES are supposed to be ultra intelligent. Bringing a knife to a tank fight shouldn't be something that ever happens.

Wyches have no need to fight tanks themselves. They have Reavers, Scourges, Hellions, Razorwings and Voidravens that are all better equipped to take out armour and then the Wyches move in to play with the squishy (former) occupants. As I said earler, we may have to agree to disagree on this. We clearly have a different view of what Wyches should and should not be.

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3. Hydra gauntlets with haywire are MORE POWERFUL than haywire grenades available to the entire squad. Run the numbers:

If hydra gauntlets are given haywire, and a squad of 10 wyches can take 2 pairs of hydra gauntlets, then that's 10 haywire attacks on the charge, the same as if all the wyches had haywire grenades. The difference is that, in the case of the hydra gauntlets, it's only taking up the attacks of 2 wyches, which means that 8 other wyches can attack the rear armour with S4 plasma grenades, or normal S4 attacks once they have furious charge, because all the haywire attacks are coming from only 2 models.

This ends up making them significantly more powerful vs. tanks, so if your intention was to make them less anti-tanky than they were before, this would be a failure.

You're ignoring the fact that Haywire only triggers on a 4+ per hit, ie half the time. So 10 attacks, 6.67 hits, 3.33 haywire rolls - half as effective as a whole squad with haywire.

Quote :

But true, this discussion WOULD be academic, were they not going to change their ridiculous grenade ruling. That said, if they change no other rulings, they will change the grenade ruling. It's had more negative feedback than any other individual ruling in any of the 38 FAQ pages.

If and when they change it I may reconsider but I'm still not of the opinion that Wyches should be a major AT threat. My main reason for giving them any access to haywire, beyond the one grenade on the squad leader, was to prevent them being utterly screwed by any walker that gets near them. Which does make me think actually. I probably need to amend the Gladiator rule to say that it has no effect on models with no Initiative characteristic. Otherwise, Wyches are getting 9 attacks against vehicles!

Please read all of this in the nicest possible tone you can imagine. I am a very logical, fact-based creature, so often my text comes across as cold and unfeeling, but I'm not attempting to be contrary. I'm attempting to be collaborative.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Quote :

3. Hydra gauntlets with haywire are MORE POWERFUL than haywire grenades available to the entire squad. Run the numbers:

If hydra gauntlets are given haywire, and a squad of 10 wyches can take 2 pairs of hydra gauntlets, then that's 10 haywire attacks on the charge, the same as if all the wyches had haywire grenades. The difference is that, in the case of the hydra gauntlets, it's only taking up the attacks of 2 wyches, which means that 8 other wyches can attack the rear armour with S4 plasma grenades, or normal S4 attacks once they have furious charge, because all the haywire attacks are coming from only 2 models.

This ends up making them significantly more powerful vs. tanks, so if your intention was to make them less anti-tanky than they were before, this would be a failure.

You're ignoring the fact that Haywire only triggers on a 4+ per hit, ie half the time. So 10 attacks, 6.67 hits, 3.33 haywire rolls - half as effective as a whole squad with haywire.

Why would haywire only trigger on a 4+ per hit? It doesn't say that in your writeup for them in 3 different places. By default, the haywire rule "triggers" on every hit from a weapon that has haywire, the same as grenades. You then roll on the haywire chart, and any roll of 2+ results in at least a hullpoint gone. Here are all the times you mention the gauntlets on the first page of comments. If you've changed in in the pages between, you'll have to forgive me for not digging through all the comments:

Count Adhemar wrote:

Two hydra gauntlets…10 pts Replace Shred with Haywire

Count Adhemar wrote:

Hydra Gauntlet – Change to Melee, Haywire, Specialist Weapon

Count Adhemar wrote:

Hydra Gauntlets change to an AT melee weapon with the addition of Haywire rule. Justified in fluff by just adding a few words on the end of their description: Hydra gauntlets are made from a flexible weave of semi-sentient, extraplanar crystal. Smooth and glassy when inert, a hydra gauntlet can be compelled by a strong-willed wearer to sprout and regrow an impossible profusion of lethal crystalline blades that generate a massive electromagnetic charge. This prevents suitably equipped Wyches being completely unable to deal with Walkers in combat but prevents them just waltzing through whole parking lots.

Without some adjustment, this is how they currently work in your writeup:

Comparison wrote:

Gauntlets: 10 haywire attacks = 10 attacks, 6.66 hits, 5.54 hullpoints
PLUS
Plain Jane's: 40 regular attacks(assuming S4 against rear AV10), 26.64 hits, 4.42 hullpoints for a TOTAL: 9.96 hullpoints

Vs.

Grenades: 10 haywire attacks = 10 attacks, 6.66 hits, 5.54 hullpoints for a TOTAL: 5.54 hullpoints

They are almost twice as effective as haywire wyches against tanks, and that's not even taking the maximum number of allowed gauntlets. Even if you were right, and they somehow didn't have haywire that triggered like it says it should in every book, the additional attacks they get from attacking rear armour as per usual will make them just as effective as haywyches ever were against most targets.

If you just forgot to update your version of haywire on your writeup, I understand that. If you are saying you WANT them to be more powerful against tanks than haywyches were, fine I'd get that too. And then you'd be right, we could agree to disagree and call it a day. That's an opinion. What you are stating when you say the haywire gauntlets are less effective at AT than grendades, however, is not an opinion. It's contesting a fact. There is no "agree to disagree" when you're discussing facts.

I see where the confusion arises. The Hydra Gauntlets have indeed changed in the final version. Check the googledoc here

I'll amend the first post to include the link to the final version. Save everyone having to wade through the whole thread.

Ok, I see the difference in the google document. Still, wyches with hydra gauntlets are more effective vs typical tanks. The only things they'll be less effective against are walkers and mech with high rear armour, like superheavies.

But I can certainly see an argument for making them that way.

Looking at your Warlord trait that rerolls failed feel no pains, do you think that may be a little over powered? Especially if said Warlord is near a Cronos?

Nariaklizhar wrote:

Looking at your Warlord trait that rerolls failed feel no pains, do you think that may be a little over powered?  Especially if said Warlord is near a Cronos?

Good point. I wrote it quite a while back and before the new FAQs came out, which make it a bit stronger than I intended. It's certainly the one I'd be hoping for unless I was running a Freakshow.

It may well be a bit much now but I'll wait to see how they finally manage the interaction between FNP and the Shadowfield before I make any change. Might reduce it to reroll failed FNP rolls of 1.