Null Deploy - Alpha Strike

So when it comes to competitive lists, it seems alpha strike is key. Knights are going to dominate tournaments because they always get to go first, unless we null deploy.

So reserves are half units on table half off. We could have a raider with 10 individual characters (or less) and that gives us the ability to have up to 11 units in reserve. 1 drop (my meta has been referring to each unit placed during deployment as a drop). Guaranteed first except against other null deploy armies. And in that case or he case of a seize, were fine because you don't have to have models on the table until turn 2 (unconfirmed)

Our list would only consist of a boat of characters, maybe some grots with them, a ravager or two, and all scourges and mandrakes

Thoughts?

Characters are expensives. Why take a character to fill units slots when you can take a full troop unit for the same price?

dumpeal wrote:

Characters are expensives. Why take a character to fill units slots when you can take a full troop unit for the same price?

Presumably because you are trying to decrease the number of units deployed on the table in order to get first turn.

You can not put a unit in reserves unless it specifically states so in the unit description.
Our Mandrakes and Hellions CAN be in reserves.. raiders, wyches, talos, ravagers, razorwings etc CAN NOT be in reserves.

Good point. We seem to have lost almost our entire ability to reserve!

Skulnbonz wrote:

You can not put a unit in reserves unless it specifically states so in the unit description.
Our Mandrakes and Hellions CAN be in reserves.. raiders, wyches, talos, ravagers, razorwings etc CAN NOT be in reserves.

I assume you mean scourges?

Do court of the archon units count as individual units? So 9 sslyth will count as 9 individual units?

Count Adhemar wrote:

dumpeal wrote:

Characters are expensives. Why take a character to fill units slots when you can take a full troop unit for the same price?

Presumably because you are trying to decrease the number of units deployed on the table in order to get first turn.

I get that, but why pay around 70 pts (I'm too lazy to go check the cost for a character) to have a 1man unit that count in your total half on the board when you can pay 40pts for a 5man unit that will also count as a single unit?

I get the point that you need to keep half your units on the board and if you stack all your unit in the same raider, you can have only 1 unit hiding behind cover, waiting for the deep strike to arrive, but it seems non-efficient point-wise.

Instead, just take a few minimal troops, with or without dark lance, sens them in cover to secure the objectives on your side of the field. You'll have the same result and much more models that will secure your objectives, and all that for less points.

Scourges as well.

Hellions can be put into reserve?


One thing to note.

units that go into reserve still count as a unit that you set up during deployment. But when you deploy the unit you say it is going into reserve instead of actually deploying it. So if you have say 8 drops. And 3 units can reserve. You can reserve a unit stead of putting on the field. So you can basically "drop reserve your 3 units without putting them on the table for your first 3 drops and see your opponent deploy 3 units before you actually deploy a unit.

The only exception to the reducing units that you deploy rule is putting units in transports.

dumpeal wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

dumpeal wrote:

Characters are expensives. Why take a character to fill units slots when you can take a full troop unit for the same price?

Presumably because you are trying to decrease the number of units deployed on the table in order to get first turn.

I get that, but why pay around 70 pts (I'm too lazy to go check the cost for a character) to have a 1man unit that count in your total half on the board when you can pay 40pts for a 5man unit that will also count as a single unit?

I get the point that you need to keep half your units on the board and if you stack all your unit in the same raider, you can have only 1 unit hiding behind cover, waiting for the deep strike to arrive, but it seems non-efficient point-wise.

Instead, just take a few minimal troops, with or without dark lance, sens them in cover to secure the objectives on your side of the field. You'll have the same result and much more models that will secure your objectives, and all that for less points.

I'm not sure that you've understood the reason. If you take 10 individual characters and put them in a Raider, that counts as 1 unit when deploying. You take it in turns to deploy units and whoever finishes first gets first turn. So if you've deployed 11 of your units in one go you're much more likely to finish before your opponent and go first. I was not aware though that units in reserve count as deployment 'drops' so that may ruin that tactic.

All of this just to get the 1st turn?

Why not pick the best army you can that is capable of taking out Knights and make use of the extra command points that you will have over a Knight army.

You have to deploy in reserve!! you cannot manipulate first turn like that..

The mandrakes and Scourges would still have to be "deployed" but in reserve and not on the table..

Count Adhemar wrote:

dumpeal wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

dumpeal wrote:

Characters are expensives. Why take a character to fill units slots when you can take a full troop unit for the same price?

Presumably because you are trying to decrease the number of units deployed on the table in order to get first turn.

I get that, but why pay around 70 pts (I'm too lazy to go check the cost for a character) to have a 1man unit that count in your total half on the board when you can pay 40pts for a 5man unit that will also count as a single unit?

I get the point that you need to keep half your units on the board and if you stack all your unit in the same raider, you can have only 1 unit hiding behind cover, waiting for the deep strike to arrive, but it seems non-efficient point-wise.

Instead, just take a few minimal troops, with or without dark lance, sens them in cover to secure the objectives on your side of the field. You'll have the same result and much more models that will secure your objectives, and all that for less points.

I'm not sure that you've understood the reason. If you take 10 individual characters and put them in a Raider, that counts as 1 unit when deploying. You take it in turns to deploy units and whoever finishes first gets first turn. So if you've deployed 11 of your units in one go you're much more likely to finish before your opponent and go first. I was not aware though that units in reserve count as deployment 'drops' so that may ruin that tactic.

I was not aware of the "Who finish first gets the first turn" thing. I get your point now, but I still think it's just not woth it.

The main concern was alpha strikes. However, I did not realize that reserves counted as drops.

I played a game a few days ago where having my full Anti tank up and running would have made a huge difference. I think first turn is going to be very important in competitive play.

Do you guys think that limiting drops to get first turn is worth it or is MSU still viable? I worry that MSU is weakened by everything having splitfire

well I'm with you on the first turn thing..


but we are equipped for not having first turn I think..

we can hide behind cover/ out of range.. and move our vehicles a good distance without a penalty to BS..

I played my DE v a knight list on Wednesday, I had 15 dark lances and 11 blaster and only managed to kill 2 before turn 5.. T8 is really hard for us to deal with unfortunately..

you also have to consider that if you had used your list against a knight list to get first turn, would you have even won the game against them? what are those characters going to do against the knights? prob nothing..

with this is mind, you concede that you are going second against knights (going second in most eternal war missions is actually considered an advantage anyway).

I realised after Wednesdays game that I should have concentrated all fire and deleted one, I tried to knock a couple down to their next degrade stage so they had hit modifiers as well as the -1 to hit from scatter field. This was prob a mistake.

another advantage we have over a knight list (granted not a huge one) is that objectives are secured by the number of models in range.. so even your MSU squads will essessially be "obsec" when facing knights.. so play the maelstrom..

I had not thought of the second turn advantage. How much did you lose first turn?

Possibly re thinking this idea, set myself up deep in the backfield, and use the reserved mandrakes and scourges to buy time when placing units

Is it better to set ourselves up to go second then? And take as many units as we like? Or should we keep our drops low so as to go first against more armies than not?

I think you should still be mindful of it yes, but I wouldn't build a list that was purely designed to go first.. There will always be smaller forces (Spacemarines, CSM, anything were the base model points costs is higher than ours)

Think I lost a venom and some hull points on other things.. nothing catastrophic.

My list is basically 5 troops in venoms, archons in venom, 3 ravager and 3 razorwing.. so 12 drops.. could swap the venoms to raiders (so 9 drops) but really my venoms are important anti infantry, and its a weaker list as a result.

so question is; is it worth it?

For the most part, with the drop rules that I didn't realize and the fact that you got away pretty unscathed (mostly due to range I assume?) I am reconsidering the viability of this.

You guys saved me a lot of money on scourges haha, thanks!

Not so much range, line of sight blocking terrain.. -1 to hit on nearly all my vehicles and 5++ all do a lot of work..

to clarify, it was dawn of war deployment.. if it was hammer and anvil you could use range better I guess