Slowest we've ever been?

So I was doing some math with Wych charges. It's been a while so I might not be getting the rules completely right so feel free to correct me, but...

5th edition: Transport moves 12", disembark 3", run d6", charge 6". Net threat range 22-27"

6-7th edition: Transport moves 6", disembark 3", move 6", charge 2d6" (with rerolls). Net threat range 17-27".

8th edition: Transport moves 0", Disembark 3", move 8", charge 2d6" (possible rerolls). Net threat range 13-23"

Am I wrong, or was our minimum threat range in 5th really hovering near our maximum threat range in 8th?

You disembarked 6" in 7th.

TeenageAngst wrote:

You disembarked 6" in 7th.

Ah yes. Now I remember. Disembark 6" instead of moving, wasn't it?

Yes, so nearly the same as now, but we can still move our transport afterwards.
It is not that we became significantly slower, it is that everyone else quite a few others became faster that makes us feel like we became slower.

We also became significantly slower.

Smaller minimum threat range (fine) smaller maximum threat range (not fine)

Ikol wrote:

We also became significantly slower.

Smaller minimum threat range (fine) smaller maximum threat range (not fine)

The funny thing is that back in 5th Wyches were pretty scary, despite being mechanically very similar to how they are now. However, there are a few significant differences.

1) moar speed. As stated, we used to be far faster.
2) Overwatch/pistols. Back in 5th we could charge in and hit the enemy without ever getting shot at, making our 4++ save much better.
3) Charge Bonus. Back in the day we got our +1 attack on the charge, a 50% increase in killing power on the initial impact that we almost always got because of our exceptional speed.
4) High Initiative. Very little could deal with Initiative 6, so we were practically certain to get our full squad's attacks off before the enemy could do anything.
5) Haywire Grenades. A squad of 10 Wyches with haywire grenades would stunlock any vehicle in melee, immobilizing it and rendering it weaponless through sheer number of glancing hits. It was unlikely but possible that we might get a penetrating hit and wreck it, even!


Now Days Wyches cost about the same, and have almost the same stats, but for the above reasons are no longer anywhere near as effective.

But they're in the top three most improved units in 8e!!! FLG said so...

6) Locked in combat is no longer a thing, so now anyone can fall back and let the Wyches die from allied shooting. Don't give me BS about their ability, it's a 50/50 chance and they will die the moment that they fail it. 50% chance of the squad not dying outright is not a good thing.

Technically 58.33% since you win ties. Not saying that's good. E: nevermind this is contradiced by the roll-off rule itself, it's 50-50. My bad. Have never used wyches since I don't see how they are good for anything.

We have become slower in charging range.
But how much could you move with your transports and still fire with the passengers ? 6". Now, it's 14/16".

Mppqlmd wrote:

We have become slower in charging range.
But how much could you move with your transports and still fire with the passengers ? 6". Now, it's 14/16".

Back in 5th? 12". But back then we had Night Shields that reduced enemy range by 6", which made it far harder to effectively retaliate against us and bought us more time to bring our weapons into range.

Well, be happy then, the ability to move full speed and shoot with passengers, that was cruely taken away in 6th/7th edition, has now been given back !
5th edition was such a different game that i'm pretty sure "not being able to disembark after movement" is not the greatest difference, even in the specific case of Wyches (hum hum, haywire grenades on every model, hum hum).

My logic here tells me that we lost 4" of threat radius for cc units from 7th to 8th, and gained 8-10" of gunboat threat radius.

The real point where "slowest we've ever been" is for me the lack of Enhanced Aethersails (which should allow us to advance 2d6).

Mppqlmd wrote:

Well, be happy then, the ability to move full speed and shoot with passengers, that was cruely taken away in 6th/7th edition, has now been given back !
5th edition was such a different game that i'm pretty sure "not being able to disembark after movement" is not the greatest difference, even in the specific case of Wyches (hum hum, haywire grenades on every model, hum hum).

My logic here tells me that we lost 4" of threat radius for cc units from 7th to 8th, and gained 8-10" of gunboat threat radius.

The real point where "slowest we've ever been" is for me the lack of Enhanced Aethersails (which should allow us to advance 2d6).

The increased gunboat radius is fantastic, do not get me wrong, but for an army that is built so insanely heavily around melee as we are getting a boost to range at the cost of melee is a choice that is somewhat bizarre.

It is entirely in keeping with our general design philosophy though: Under no circumstances should any upgrades fit with the general theme of the army!

Indeed, the paradox is there. But it would be a more logical solution, in my eyes, to redesign Power from Patience and shift us into a more shooting playstyle (which we already have), which occasionnal CC specialists, than try and correct the disembark rules to allow us a CC playstyle, which we will never have.
It's not the disembark rules that prevents us from being a CC army. It's the profiles of our CC troops.

Mppqlmd wrote:

Indeed, the paradox is there. But it would be a more logical solution, in my eyes, to redesign Power from Patience and shift us into a more shooting playstyle (which we already have), which occasionnal CC specialists, than try and correct the disembark rules to allow us a CC playstyle, which we will never have.
It's not the disembark rules that prevents us from being a CC army. It's the profiles of our CC troops.

That would be nice but will require expanding our roster, as we have very few non-vehicle shooting units (Warriors, Trueborn, Scourges, arguably Mandrakes). Of those, only two are going to really benefit from open topped transports since Scourges cannot use them and Mandrakes lose most of their special rules while embarked.

I would love to have our roster expanded btw.

FuelDrop wrote:

I would love to have our roster expanded btw.

Eh, would be lovely. Probably not happening anytime soon, but who knows ?
I have to agree with your point : there is less and less incitement to play CC as Dark Eldar, and the disembark rules are another nail in the coffin.
But our shooting mobility has increased, and that's cool

Mppqlmd wrote:

FuelDrop wrote:

I would love to have our roster expanded btw.

Eh, would be lovely. Probably not happening anytime soon, but who knows ?
I have to agree with your point : there is less and less incitement to play CC as Dark Eldar, and the disembark rules are another nail in the coffin.
But our shooting mobility has increased, and that's cool

Our shooting ability has increased. Unfortunately by this point we have few shooting units and only a few viable weapon options out of an already limited list.

This is what happens when you take an army tailored for melee and strategically reduce its melee capabilities. You get an army with lots of dead weight units and weapons that get ignored for a very limited selection of viable squads and guns.

Ow but it is not that strange to go that route.

Mandrakes used to be a pure melee unit.
Then they became a melee unit that could shoot after it killed another unit (in melee)
Now their shooting is most of the time better then their melee skill.

Wyches have 2 attacks right now, maybe in the next iteration  they will get pistols that shoot twice.
Reavers have been in previous editions been flying over units to deal damage and have the option to carry special guns, making them ranged is quite easy, just give them twin linked like very other bike.
Same goes for the hellions, 2 s4 no ap attacks or 2 shots poison 4+ hardly makes a difference.

Half our melee units are so bad at melee at this moment that there is very little change neccesary to change them into shooting units. We mainly need a few better melee or ranged weapons and we can shift from one to the other. But shooting is safer if you have t3 a bad save and cost 15+ points a model.

One could nearly agrue that our army was designed to shoot a few turns before going into melee with the same units. Even some of our shooty units (trueborn) have 2 attacks each.

Beaten by fueldrop

Dark Eldar are not tailored for cc. They are supposed to be a balanced army that adapt : play CC against T'au, play range against orks.
And they still kinda do. Wyches win against shooting units. But the focus has strayed away from CC.

|Meavar wrote:

Beaten by fueldrop

Naturally. The only thing OP about Dark Eldar is ME!

Yeah, there's a reason I'm not a fan of our transport-based assault units in this edition.

Which is why it's a shame that our entire PfP table seems based around them.  

FuelDrop wrote:

The funny thing is that back in 5th Wyches were pretty scary, despite being mechanically very similar to how they are now. However, there are a few significant differences.

1) moar speed. As stated, we used to be far faster.
2) Overwatch/pistols. Back in 5th we could charge in and hit the enemy without ever getting shot at, making our 4++ save much better.
3) Charge Bonus. Back in the day we got our +1 attack on the charge, a 50% increase in killing power on the initial impact that we almost always got because of our exceptional speed.
4) High Initiative. Very little could deal with Initiative 6, so we were practically certain to get our full squad's attacks off before the enemy could do anything.
5) Haywire Grenades. A squad of 10 Wyches with haywire grenades would stunlock any vehicle in melee, immobilizing it and rendering it weaponless through sheer number of glancing hits. It was unlikely but possible that we might get a penetrating hit and wreck it, even!


Now Days Wyches cost about the same, and have almost the same stats, but for the above reasons are no longer anywhere near as effective.

Something other points to consider:
- Wych weapons used to be *much* better. Hydra Gauntlets granted +1d6 extra attacks, Razorflails allowed the user to reroll all to-hit and to-wound rolls in combat.
- They had HQ synergy in that The Duke could let them reroll their Combat Drugs result.
- Agonisers were much better as they ignored all armour saves (as opposed to the Liquorice-whips they are today).
- S3 became increasingly worse after 5th. Back then it was a reasonable threat, but in 6th and 7th it became all but worthless - with most units either being outright immune or else being so resilient that they might as well have been immune (e.g. do the math on how many lasguns or wych attacks it took to kill a Necron Wraith in 7th).
- Wyches were much cheaper relative to other units. In 5th, IIRC, a Wych was 10pts and a Tactical Marine was about 18pts. Tactical Marines (along with most other stuff) have been getting huge point reductions, to the point where they now cost just 13pts. What's more, they've been getting buff after buff. In contrast, Wyches have received basically no buffs whatsoever, yet their cost has languished at around 10pts. It's take about 3 editions for them to get a mere 1pt reduction from their 5th edition price, whilst the marines have had about 1/3 of their cost knocked off.

Your guys' complaints make sense - is there a way to make New GW (tm) more aware of this? Lamenting here won't change the rules.

I was ok playing DE 7e and I will be more so 8e, since I think we are objectively more competitive, but it would be good to have more variety in the army. It would be so good if Codex gave us a variety of interesting HQs like CWE. Maybe dedicated fan feedback phrased in a constructive way could help?

Lord Johan wrote:

Your guys' complaints make sense - is there a way to make New GW (tm) more aware of this? Lamenting here won't change the rules.

I was ok playing DE 7e and I will be more so 8e, since I think we are objectively more competitive, but it would be good to have more variety in the army. It would be so good if Codex gave us a variety of interesting HQs like CWE. Maybe dedicated fan feedback phrased in a constructive way could help?

I did send them an E-mail last night via their "Contact Us" page. hopefully that reaches someone receptive.

They seem to respond to stuff on their Facebook page so maybe that might be a good route.

Well, while we are not 100% consistent about the best way to solve the problems that we have discovered, we are fairly sure we can articulate what needs fixing and why.