More Agents of Vect/Black Heart detachment Questions

Hello. My question(s) revolve around the "do you need a black heart detachment to use Agents of Vect" question. I am aware it was discussed quite a lot in the following thread here:

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t17821-gw-finally-said-aov-stratagem-is-for-bh-only?highlight=stratagem

However I have a follow up question rather than rehashing the same one: At the NOVA tournament just recently, Nick Nanavati fielded a list that included one Black Heart auxiliary detachment of 5 kabalite warriors. According to the codex, an auxiliary detachment does not qualify you to use a factions stratagems. Now, he also had a prophets of flesh detachment, but by him having that black heart auxiliary I assume he was going by the facebook "ruling" that a black heart detachment is required to use the stratagem.

So the question is this: Does the codex's mentioning of auxiliary detachments not qualifying for a factions stratagems mean that it should also not qualify for a sub-faction's specific?

This of course assumes we can find any bit of logic in this whole question, since the same list also included Ynnari with Saim-Hann shining spears leading me to believe he also used the Saim-Hann stratagem even without a Saim-Hann detachment...*sigh*

If it doesn't apply for Stratagems, it doesn't apply for ANY Stratagems, sub-faction or otherwise.

But I do have to say, I put no stock in posts on Facebook being official. its nice when they clrify things and they can be reasonably taken, but if they're not in an FAQ I don't think they can be taken as granted considering not everyone will be able to find that specific ruling.

I believe NOVA specifically ruled that this was legal. Whether they were right in a RAW sense is another matter entirely...

Count Adhemar wrote:

I believe NOVA specifically ruled that this was legal. Whether they were right in a RAW sense is another matter entirely...

I'd be very interested to hear NOVA's specific ruling on this, because I would not have allowed it. its very specifically against the rules.

It's certainly against RAI but the RAW issue still hasn't been resolved IMO. I know what GW wants the rules to do but that's not what they actually do.

I think I worked it out after some chats.

NOVA fell down on the concept that a few have - that having a Drukhari Detachment gives you access to ALL of the Stratagems. The Prophets Of Flesh Detachment allowed access to ALL of them, you just cant use most because they target <KABAL/CULT/COVEN>. Basically, they used the same ruling that have BH doesn't actually matter because it doesn't target anything.

This is something that really needs to be dealt with in a FAQ.

RAW each Codex has a line similar to this:
"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any Drukhari Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments), you have access to the Stratagems shown here..."

Subfaction Stratagems are part of the list of Stratagems, so RAW appear to be unlocked.

GW have given more than a few hints that they want a Black Heart detachment to unlock Agents of Vect. So it's fair to say that is so clearly their intent that it has become effectively RAW. However, that opens up more questions that are not answered:
1) Does a Black Heart detachment include an Auxiliary Support Detachment?
2) Is this Agents of Vect only, or does it apply to other subfaction detachments?
3) [This one is a little silly] Do Mercenaries in a detachment deny you access to subfaction Stratagems, as they only offer an exemption for Obsessions?

I would like to see a clarification that subfaction detachments are unlocked by a detachment of that subfaction (non-auxiliary support only). However, this hasn't happened, so there are some slightly silly things going on as a result.

I'm thinking in the FAQ they will specify that Agents of Vect is usable as long as you have a Black Heart unit alive on the board regardless of detachment. Basically an incentive to bring more than a token Kabalite Warrior squad while also not invoking a special case scenario. Mostly because special case scenarios are icky.

TeenageAngst wrote:

I'm thinking in the FAQ they will specify that Agents of Vect is usable as long as you have a Black Heart unit alive on the board regardless of detachment.

Personally, I would make it Black Heart Archon on the board, but unit mostly works too.

It should have been a Black Heart Warlord Trait. Means you must have a BH detachment AND it keeps it out of the hands of anyone who just wants to take a minimum detachment of DE just to get it unless they sacrifice having their 'main' faction's warlord traits.

I dont get it: They don't clarify in the stratagem text that you need a pure black heart detachment to unlock the stratagem AoV.


The weird thing, as i understand the new Q&A-part:
They confirm the Nova Ruling on Nicks question (with the additional condition, that a Black Heart Unit must be on the battlefield:

Q: If the only Kabal of the Black Heart unit in my battle-forged army is in an Auxiliary Support Detachment, but my army includes another Drukhari Detachment that is not an Auxiliary Support Detachment, can I still use the Agents of Vect Stratagem?
A: Yes, so long as the Kabal of the Black Heart unit is on the battlefield.


If you wouldn't need a pure Black Hearth Detachment to be able to use the stratagem, which is unlocked by the other non-black-heart detachment, the q&q would be without any sense.

so why didn't they adress all the other subfaction-specific stratagems (stygies fulgurite priests, saim-hann shining spears, ...)

They are confirming that any non-auxiliary support detachment unlocks all stratagems in a Codex, including Agents of Vect.

Now that a Black Heart unit is required, it is no longer a special case where there is no focus for the unit, and works like pretty much any subfaction detachment. That also means Ynnari Shining Spears are still fine for using subfaction stratagems.