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 How to beat Blood Angels?

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Anggul
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PostSubject: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 30 2012, 18:48

A good buddy of mine runs Blood Angels, and we used to have some epic encounters when I ran my wolves. But now as i'm running evil space pirates it's a harder, one sided game.

Issues:
Fast marines
FNP
Acurate Decent of Angels
Nasty Alpha strike

This is the rough list.

Mephiston
Librarian
Thunder hammer terminators with sanguinary priest, riding in a storrm raven
About 40 jump packers, sanguinary priests sprinkled in, melta power fists
3 baal preds (2 flame storm, 1 assault cannon)

My list consists of

Duke
3 Blastorborn in venoms
4 Wych squads (raider, power weapon, hydra gauntlets)
warrior squad, blastor, venom
2 ravagers (lances)
1 razorwing (lances)





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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 30 2012, 19:01

cc vs cc is tough, they are just "better" at it, in that they can hit us with more power weapons easier and have a better save vs normal weapons. Its a war of attrition that they tend to win. I have had success with the RJF and dissies, ap2 negates FNP, and it can pop up where you need it the most; i.e the fnp sangy preist squad(s). Necrotoxin potentially pinning a priests squad could be very useful as well, though I have not tried it.

I tend to face BA lists with more dreads than preds, but Im still running 16+ lances at the 1750-2000 point level without the 2 from the RJF, a little light for some but I don't face alot of mech spam. However I have yet to down that silly stormaven in the 6 or so games I have played against them!

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 30 2012, 22:01

I had a similar problem today fighting demons... eventually they all had power weapons, and were wounding on 3+ and rerolling wounds... it was pretty sick...

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 12:45

That is a definate list to go 2nd and full reserve against. If you go 1st even full reserving will not help as his counter would be to do exactly the same.

Your problem here is that if you are on the table then he will drop in your face very accurately, therefore being off the table is almost essential. If you can do this then come on and hit isolated units as hard as possible, run away and try to repeat. Of course this is not so easy with JP infantry.
Your venoms will be almost useless against this list 3+ then FnP,and for the same reason, monscythes will also be useless. I think in this instance you are almost obligated to try to lance and blaster the JP's down a squad at a time. Whilst avoiding the preds and storm raven.

A very tough match up.
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 14:43

You might want to try small units of Hellions with Stunclaws. Use them to grab the Sanguinary Priests out of his squads and move them away from his troops, thus depriving them of FNP and FC. Not tried this myself but in theory it could work.

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 15:23

Maybe exchange one Wych squad for Incubi?
They chop red marines really good, especially troops marines with priest. Its not hard to kill one wound IC and have FnP.

Naturally better to follow kenny's advise, cause if you aint atack first none of it matters.

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 18:10

^^^ Thanks Az.

I didn't want to bring it up; I realise I'm beginning to sound like a broken record Wink

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 18:14

It's a nasty list and he knows how to run it. The terminator squad is horrible and hits like a brick, so downing their raven is a priority. It usually screams on from reserve to deliver its payload into the midfield.

I'm not crazy on full reserve, but it makes sense as I have the range. I do wish we had some way to manipulate reserves but hay.

I do have incubi I could run, and they usually do well.

The other school of thought is Lady Malys to place tempting units to sway deployment and then take them off and reserve them. ? Thoughts there?

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2012, 07:15

Quote :
I'm not crazy on full reserve, but it makes sense as I have the range. I do wish we had some way to manipulate reserves but hay.

Of all codexes with no reserve manipulation DE is least crazy when doing full reserve.
If it turned out there is not enough things came from reserve you can always just chose right place where to appear and turbo-boost the hell away to wait for next turn.
Thats especially usable against DoA armies who lacks long-range fire as a class.
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2012, 10:04

Levitas wrote:

Fast marines
FNP
Acurate Decent of Angels
Nasty Alpha strike

This is the rough list.

Mephiston
Librarian
Thunder hammer terminators with sanguinary priest, riding in a storrm raven
About 40 jump packers, sanguinary priests sprinkled in, melta power fists
3 baal preds (2 flame storm, 1 assault cannon)

My list consists of

Duke
3 Blastorborn in venoms
4 Wych squads (raider, power weapon, hydra gauntlets)
warrior squad, blastor, venom
2 ravagers (lances)
1 razorwing (lances)


I think that the obvious applies here and the biggest problem is pulling it off in game. I would say DoA and Alpha strike is the same thing. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so accurate. While I'm here what size table are you playing on.

I back the idea of going second and using reserves. With a bit of luck you won't come on a bit at a time and if you do just try and keep yourself alive. If he bunches up run away, if he spreads out pick him apart. Cripple his speed and ranged weapons first... As you say hammernators are scary but they ain't so tough if they are stuck on foot on the other side of the table... Then you can ignore them/shoot them/bundle them with wyches if they are unsupported.

Remember you can target the priest in combat and that their FNP is no good against anything with a strength of 8 or an AP of 2.

I feel this is easier on a 6 by 4 board... tougher on a 4 by 4 board.
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeSun May 06 2012, 11:32

The only way I have been able to deal with BA is to use overwhelming force in combat, i.e assault 1 squad of 10 assault marines with two squads of wyches or focus fire on the squads which add FnP in one turn.

If they DS with everything I just split my army in two-three big groups of equal power but keep them close enough to be able to group up ASAP if the BA player decided to throw all his forces on one group rather than splitting the army himself

Never get out of your vehicles unless you are going to be in assault the same turn, a squad of 9 wyches + haemonculi can hold a squad of 10 jump packers and probabily even win (with heavy losses). If you get assaulted by him its a different story, leaving all forms of luck aside, you will have heavy losses on his assault.

The hydra gauntlet is probably one of the reasons you get smashed in close combat VS BA, its not the amount of attacks that makes the difference between you or him rolling the leadership role but its the 3-4 PW attacks that he gets, you with 4++ & FNP should be able to shrug off most of the normal CC attacks, but not the PW ones.

Your ravagers (and raiders, depends on deployment etc) make short work of the few vehicles he has

Focus fire, Overwhelming force and never fight on equal terms, I know this is the anthem of the DE anyways but here it is even more important because he is somewhat better than you in CC if you take 10 wyches vs 10 jump boys, not by a lot but that small bonus makes quite a difference.
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeMon May 07 2012, 19:39

Well, the big issue for me here (and I play BA Jumpers as well as DE) is that Wyches aren't scary at all, to pretty much anyone, but especially not Terminators or FNP Assault Marines. If you're lucky, they'll tie up a unit for a turn or two, then get beaten down. It's one of the shames of the codex, IMO, that wyches are so... ineffectual. It's also a shame the old Disintegrators are gone as that would solve a lot of your/our problems, though it would not necessarily work with the Duke/wyches build.

His army's biggest strength is getting in your face and biggest weakness is lack of fire support. No Devastators? No Predators? No Razorbacks? Thanks!

BA Jumpers are solid, but hardly unbeatable. They aren't fearless (hello, mass tank shocks) and are only Marines when you take away FNP. If you are good in the assault phase, you should be able to manuever your power weapons into the characters (Priests, Librarians) so that even if you lose and retreat, you have done a big job. FNP Wyches will be able to hold ground against AM once you strip them of their priest as a single powerfist isn't even guaranteed to wound.

Stretch out the battlefield. If the Terminators run down the middle, hit the flanks. They pick a flank, jet to the other side. Avoid the 450+ nastiness and if they get on foot, GOOD. Do they score? No. Then don't get distracted by them. Spreading wide will also limit the impact of the Baals and hopefully yield side shots where lances are suddenly a little bit better. Further, they only have so many FNP/Shield of Sanguinous bubbles. Stretch them out and they can't double-duty their priests.

Mephiston has no invulnerable save and can't join units. Dark Lance until dead. He is fleet, potentially S10/jump pack/preferred enemy, so prioritize him with the Raven and Baals.

Shardnets. Wyches, if you're keeping them, can do a lot more if you negate how much damage they're taking. I don't really rate Hydra Gauntlets or Razorflails, and the defensive bonus of the Shardnet is really nice when facing nasty H2H units where you are just trying to hold them off while your power weap and shooting units do their jobs. Consider them.

Incubi are nice, but they will get smashed by Hammernators. If you can be choosy about where they engage and use them as hammers to multi-assault AM units, great. A kitted out Archon or Vect can do the job as well if you'd abandon the Duke.

That's about it off the top of my head.

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeWed May 09 2012, 22:31

This will seem like heresy to some people here, but one BA player at my club runs a list with a lot of jumpack like this one so I started to use Ravagers with Disintegrators, 9 shots each turn that negate both their armor and their FnP. EAch Ravager will kill 4 marines on an average roll.
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 07:43

Deamon wrote:
This will seem like heresy to some people here, but one BA player at my club runs a list with a lot of jumpack like this one so I started to use Ravagers with Disintegrators, 9 shots each turn that negate both their armor and their FnP. EAch Ravager will kill 4 marines on an average roll.

That sounds brilliant, due to the hate for dissie ravagers i never even consiered this as a tactic. I might start building my ravagers so you can swap the guns.

My normal tactic with blood angels though is mass tank shock, shoot them to death with darklight and then use tank shock before assault so that only a couple of BA's can attack by tank shocking them away from the group. This way only a couple of their models can attack but all my wyches can. I think there is an image of this happening in a dark eldar tactica somewhere on warseer.

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 18:18

Deamon wrote:
This will seem like heresy to some people here, but one BA player at my club runs a list with a lot of jumpack like this one so I started to use Ravagers with Disintegrators, 9 shots each turn that negate both their armor and their FnP. EAch Ravager will kill 4 marines on an average roll.

Sounds ballsy, but how does that list fare against mechspam?

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeFri May 18 2012, 23:30

Blood angels are a tough set up for us, that many rapid cc troops with meq stats is not for the faint hearted, and with all the perks of there codex its hard to pull off consistant wins.
One thing that BA players can fall into is playing a bit to headstrong, charging through open ground for example. This would benefit running a full reserve list with blasterborn ( I might even stretch to 4 per venom over 3) and dissie ravagers and raiders. simply to get that ap 2 multi-shot. Use wyches in raiders to take out armour. Also I would say with wyches, don't even try to tarpit because that many marines will tear through a 10 women squad, assault with multiple units to wipe a unit off the board first round of assault. e.g. a 10 man assault squad vs 10 wyches- no, 10 man assault squad vs 30 wyches- yes. Then in the consolodation spread out (his shooting doesn't sound to strong) and wait. Then when he kills another squad and its your turn you go 20 vs 10 and hope.
Spreading your army like that may buy you time to whittle down his other units with blasters and dissies.
A web way portal w/talos may also work?

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 08:40

I like to run a Disintegrator Ravager with my lists as well.

Really, a DE army should have enough anti tank in other areas to compensate for losing 3 DL. Also, think of how often you end up shooting a ravager into MEQs, TEQs, and MCs anyway.


Also, against AV 10 or 11 the Dissie does pretty good comparaed to a DL

Ravager with Dark Lances (3)
AV10
Chance of Pen: 133.3%
Chance of Glance: 33.3%
Chance of Wreck/Explodes: 44.4%

Ravager with Dark Lances (3)
Av 11
Chance of Pen: 99.9%
Chance of Glance: 33.3%
Chance of Wreck/Explodes: 33.3%


Ravager with Disintegrators (3)
Av 10
Chance of Pen:99.9%
Chance of Glance: 99.9%
Chance of Wreck/Explodes: 33.3%

Ravager with Disintegrators (3)
Av11
Chance of Pen: N/A
Chance of Glance: 99.9%
Chance of Wreck/Explodes:N/A


For disabling a vehicle (scoring some kind of hit), a Dis has a better chance than a DL vs AV10. The DL is 33% more effective at AV 11.

I think every DE played should try a Dissie Ravager for a few games

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 10:39

Incubi are glorious against Blood Angels with Priests.

Also, Priests are hilarious when you have a Huskblade/Soultrap Archon.

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 12:01

Anggul wrote:

Also, Priests are hilarious when you have a Huskblade/Soultrap Archon.

This!
Sang Priets are a perfect target for ST/HB as they are only 1 wound - if your friend is sharp, he'll keep Sang Priest surrounded by red....so prolly not worth it - but bring it for a laugh anyway. If you score, then go charge Mephiston. S6 (or S7 if 2 Pain Tokens) would be a taste of his own medicine....

Oh Mephiston, 2 ways to bring him down - heaps of Lances/Blasters to the face, or you can pin him with Wyches, Shadnet, Hek/Ago and let Incubi charge in to finish him off.

Now, Ravagers w/ Dissies will be money against FnP Assault marines - 3 Rav's will give you 27 S5 AP2 shots at 36", check my math-hammer but this should ressult in approx. 11 dead marines. Punish 1 squad at a time. You could also take TGL and Shock Prows giving him -1 to Ld AND if they want to assault they need to test, at -1 Ld.......also don't forget NS for the Meltas - but now we're getting too many points on our paperplanes.

So just max out on stuff that ignore's FnP; Incubi, Agonisiers, Liquifiers (if 1 or 2 rolled), S8/AP2 weapons, Heat Lances, etc. DE have what it takes, just need to build specifically for the fight, and deploy correctly - sometimes that means going full reserve and taking 2nd Turn
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 18:28

1++ wrote:
Anggul wrote:

Also, Priests are hilarious when you have a Huskblade/Soultrap Archon.

This!
Sang Priets are a perfect target for ST/HB as they are only 1 wound - if your friend is sharp, he'll keep Sang Priest surrounded by red....so prolly not worth it - but bring it for a laugh anyway.

Don't Independent Characters have a rule where they have to move into base contact with one another?

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeSun May 20 2012, 16:36

How to beat Blood Angels? 20678582

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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeMon May 21 2012, 01:29

Anggul wrote:
Don't Independent Characters have a rule where they have to move into base contact with one another?

Not quite. Independent characters assaulting, reacting, or piling in have to move into base contact with an enemy model if possible. There's no requirement for them to engage each other.

And abuse of positioning and order of movement can result in an IC who is unable to reach base contact, potentially even when pile in moves are made. (DE are especially good at this when we want to protect a Haemonculus or the like due to our open-topped transports.)
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeTue May 29 2012, 21:49

Raneth wrote:
How to beat Blood Angels? 20678582

I think I love you for this, Raneth.

So I'm a new player, been on DE for around 3-5 months now, and several people in this thread have seen my woes with BA. I'm finally to a point where I can force my BA opponent into a tie nearly every single game, regardless of how hard he pounds me in the first round or two.

He consistently runs with a Mephiston, 1-3 JP Assault marines, 3-4 Razorbacks, 2 Dreads, 2-3 Sang priests. He will swap in things like Honor guard, Storm Ravens, Sanguary guard, and more.

I run a primarily CC based DE army:
3 Haemons, (possibly 1 Succ/1Archon )

3 Wyches squads, with Shardnet/HWG, No Hekagonizer.****

3 groups of 4 Blasterborn.
2 Ravagers
1 RJF with Lances and monoscythes.

What ends up happening:
If I go first, He's fully reserving minus some hidden Dreads on the field that will pop out in T1 and kill 2 Raiders/Ravagers.
If he's first, He's fully on field, and in my face by T1, I'm either fully reserved, or as LOS'd as I can get.

I basically wait for him to charge wide across the map, and then I swoop across a side, removing as many transports as possibly along the way, and possibly shooting a dread to not-so-useful.

I will drop in, and lay in tons of Blasterfire, and Splinterfire in Meph, and wait for him to die. I haven't bothered letting him get into CC once since I swapped to a full Blasterborn group. He used to easily mop up around 200-500 points a game with Meph.

He will DoA his Sanguary Guard or a group of JP assaults, I don't really care because it's typically at my Ravagers, and after they either wreck or destroy one transport/dread, They've served their purpose.

I never bring my RJF in the first turn, and I'm almost to the point where I'm going to swap the DLs for Dissies and take a second one with Lances over a second Ravager. RJFs are such fantastic bullet magnets, they unleash tons of fear with thier DSing since BA loves to just get into your face. Once they are far away, you land in a RJF near an objective, and force his dreads to start unloading at it. This saves your Raiders/ravager for a turn, and those missiles.... I tend to just throw everything the RJF has at one unit once it lands, and it serves the job well. Nothing says "You don't need that objective..." quite like the RJF. If he was foolish enough to split his army over objectives, you're going to be happy as sin. Put dissies on the RJF? Watch marines melt. It helps the RJF really fulfill it's role as the giant AI platform I use it as, and can still annoy a dread with glances if you absolutely must shoot at it.

What this also does, is frees the blasterborn to shoot at things other than just Dreads/Preds/Razorbacks. Once you have the ability to drop 4 blaster shots, and 12 spintercannon shots into a unit, they start melting much faster than they can anticipate. Throw in your wyches to mop them up and prevent a counter assault, You will do well.

That said, I've yet to win against him, because I simply never seem to be able to obliterate him completely due to simple mistakes I make along the way, but I think I'm almost there.
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PostSubject: Re: How to beat Blood Angels?   How to beat Blood Angels? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 01 2012, 10:17

Levitas wrote:

Issues:
Fast marines
FNP
Acurate Decent of Angels
Nasty Alpha strike

Ravens with implosion missiles, razorwing with shatterfields, ravager with disintegrator, a forward assault wytches with shardnets - in order for them to survive - than second assault with incubi, reavers with upped tallons and 36" burst from one corner to the other then pop some Bales with heatlance, tallos may be a good idea, if it can be kept alive untill it can do some damage.

Literally all the Ravens weapons are ap2 - except the other missiles - and has a funny mine to back it up.
Razorwing...well why would you buy a voidraven for shatterfields? Razorwing gets them 5p cheaper/rocket, and has two lances.
Ravager. If you dont get why disints: s5ap2, virtually killing every marine it wounds. Virtually, so im not counting invul saves. And BA has a lot, but 9 shots is better than 3.
For the wytch-incu combo you are going to need careful positioning, cause if this slips up, boy ow boy are thos gals in truble.
Reavers are funFunFUN! 36" move with those moveing through attacks in to cover, than heatlanceing the hell out of those predators is just a good may to be mocking your enemy.

I dont think blasterborn are the ways to go. If they are in 18" of something that means they are a victory or death unite.
wytches arent good on their own, they need support. They are a great tarpit unite, so long as they have melee support from a nother unite. Ravagers are your AV10 OT darklight weapon platforms. And usually get opened fast.
The Razorwing now theres something i like. 36" flat out, 4 missiles, 2 darklight weapons. You have to decide what you want to do with it. If you want to hack vehicles, take a voidraven instead for the voidlance - s9ap2lance - that is allso supersonic and has aerial assault. If you are going after AI, then swop those lances for disints and get shatterfield missiles - 5 pt each on the wing.

I havent yet tried the Baron-Beastmaster combo, so i can't comment on that, but as i saw, they can put out quite the pain. And are very expensive.

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