Units to use in 1750p Tournament list?

Greetings!

I am attending a tournament in late September (1.750p). In preparation I have tested a MSU list 5 times. It has proved very deadly / efficient, but some tactical errors (and bad dice rolls of course…) have deprived me from victory several times.
I field 5 Venoms and 4 Raiders. 6 units of 5 man Warriors Squads with Blasters and 3 Blasterborn units. I would like to use Wyches (Haywire grenades), but they tend to get killed when the Raiders go down (that is why I use Warriors, they tend to survive better and can dish out pain from a distance).

There are three things I (mainly) would like to get advice about.

1) 3 Ravagers or 2 Ravagers and a Razorwing? I have found both to be very efficient, but with Quad Guns and Vendettas all over the place I am afraid I will not get the point cost back from the Razorwing. The Ravagers shoot from turn 1. Then there is the “terror” element. By this I mean that the opponent sees he will be facing a Flyer, and needs to take this into consideration.. Please give me your thoughts of whether to go with 3 ravagers or Ravager and up to 2 Flyers.

2) Whyshes or Warriors. I love the Wyshes (having built and painted 30 of them), but they tend to die when the Raiders blow up. And the ones that survive take heavy fire. The warriors have an output from a distance, and they do have "some armour save". What are you guy’s preferences?

3) Fielding so many skimmers limits the size of my troop units. I have thought about taking one less unit with Raider, boosting to units to 10. Does anyone have any preference they would like to share and why?

Thanks,
Wolffgard

You need flyers to take out other flyers, so taking Razorwings/Voidravens is practically required. Personally I prefer Warriors over Wytches, since they can carry blasters, and with the rapid fire changes splinter rifles have a pretty decent threat range. Altough small Wytch squads make very effective anti tank units, they are purely suicide units. Don't expect them to survive after having haywired one tank to death. Since ultimately 10 Warriors are still eays to kill, I'd rather go with large amounts of small units instead of a few larger ones (altough a big unit would make a pretty good bodyguard for an allied Farseer or Eldrad. If they sit in some ruins in the backfield, they can survive pretty well unless large amount of fire is directed at them).

#1:
Concerning the Ravager/Razorwing discussion. I've been playing a veteran tournamentplayer a couple of times lately (a nice one... they exist lol). To my suprise the first thing he asked me was why I didn't take an additional Ravager instead of the Razorwing. It's véry valueble to get information from your opponents, so I asked for his reasoning.

He said that from his end of the table 3 immediate threats (as in 3 Ravagers with each 3x 36" S8 AP2 shots) on the table from turn 1 scared him more then a lackluster flyer (lackluster as in that it often doesn't earn it's points back) coming on from turn 2 (or turn 4 if you're unlucky). We discussed that I then have nothing against flyers. He pointed out that 9 outta 10 flyers in 40K tournament scene carry troops and go to hover mode. Then it's just a fast skimmer which you can hit on full BS.

So yeah, funny that you've come into the same problem as me lately. I'm still on the fence. So in the coming time I'll be testing 3 Ravagers and/or 2 Ravagers + 1 Razorwing. I really can't tell you by dry theory, need to get my toes wet.

#2:
I don't know how long you play DE ofcourse, but may I congratulate you on arriving at the bread and butter of the DE army so quickly. I personally don't feel that it's the most fun to play, but all in all I think the list you describe is the most competitive in a tournamentscene. As for the Wyches with Haywire grenades, that really depends on your tactics on the table. Do you use your jink saves enough? Do you use terrainfeatures enough? Go flatout for the +1 on the jinksave? Don't forget your flickerfield for the 5++. I often find the coversaves in combination with 'target saturation' that I ussually have a Wych squad with haywiregrenades at atleast 1 tank in turn 2.

#3:
I've found that to be very ineffective. DE are not that good at holding objectives for 5 turns long. Their 5+ armoursave + T3 makes them poor objective sitters. They are more a 'go get the objective' army. So even when I have objectives in my deploymentzone, I drop Warriors on them in turn 5. So before you claim the objectives it's important to stay mobile for the optimal firelanes + to keep out of danger. In adition you benefit from a 5+ jnk save at all times (or a 5++ flickerfield save). Remember that most armies out there have AP5 or better weapons, so if your Warriors are out in the open you can forget your armoursave. They also need to 'waste' shooting to get you out of your vehicle first. So see your transports as a valuable upgrade to your troops.

tlronin wrote:

#1:
Concerning the Ravager/Razorwing discussion. I've been playing a veteran tournamentplayer a couple of times lately (a nice one... they exist lol). To my suprise the first thing he asked me was why I didn't take an additional Ravager instead of the Razorwing. It's véry valueble to get information from your opponents, so I asked for his reasoning.

He said that from his end of the table 3 immediate threats (as in 3 Ravagers with each 3x 36" S8 AP2 shots) on the table from turn 1 scared him more then a lackluster flyer (lackluster as in that it often doesn't earn it's points back) coming on from turn 2 (or turn 4 if you're unlucky). We discussed that I then have nothing against flyers. He pointed out that 9 outta 10 flyers in 40K tournament scene carry troops and go to hover mode. Then it's just a fast skimmer which you can hit on full BS.

So yeah, funny that you've come into the same problem as me lately. I'm still on the fence. So in the coming time I'll be testing 3 Ravagers and/or 2 Ravagers + 1 Razorwing. I really can't tell you by dry theory, need to get my toes wet.

Currently the flyers used heavily in tournaments are:

IG-Vendettas
BA/GK- Stormraven
Necrons- Nightscythes and Doomscythes
Orks- Dakkajet

3 of those 5 flyers are transports, and out of those 3 transports, 0 of them have to enter hover mode to drop their troops. Thats not including all the flying MCs you see now (Daemons especially)

Ive often contemplated is a flyer really worth it as well, and normally Ive come up with "yes" The ability to hit flyers in our army is lacking imensely, and certain builds really expose that weakness. As to which flyer is better, well thats a hard one. Perosnally I like the Void Raven as AT is the dedicated role I want my play to fill, but the Razorwing has its merits. In the end I guess the choice is up to your meta really. Is the flyer really needed?

@Shadows Revenge:

I don't have the codici, but I do play a lot against IG, BA/GK and Orks. And they hovered with the Vendetta and the Stormraven to let the passengers out. My opponent with the dakkajet never puts passengers in, so I don't know (personally thought the dakkajet wasn't a transport). So, are you sure about this?

And with Necrons I'd focus all my energy into getting the models he dóes have on the table off in 1 turn.

edit: Oh ur not sayin the dakkajet is a transport. Nevermind.

Grav chute, shadow skies and blood skies.

I think the Valk/vendetta and Storm Raven have options of dropping units without going into hover mode, there is some drawback, but it's minor.

Necrons can't enter hover mode at all, they beam the troops in.

As far as dealing with the flyers, I wouldn't invest any more than 1 slot on dealing with them, and keep in mind if you kill everything on the game turn before the flyers come in, you win.

There are ways to avoid the flyers as well, they are one of the few models that facing matters in 40k. If you are on their board edge, they have to move past you to get on, usually putting you outside LOS. With limited maneuverability, you can also lead flyers off the board.

It's not going to work all the time, but it's the same as any tactic.

I think having atleast one flyer would probably be a good idea. I've used Razorwing in 5th along with 2 Ravagers, and it worked quite well. Might replace one of the Ravagers with another flyer now. They do have their drawbacks, but help dealing with enemy flyers and the whole hitting on 6s makes them quite durable.

I also agree with DE not being an objective sitting army. However, if you're using an allied Farseer, he can't board a transport so you should place him in an unit to protect him, and that unit might as well be scoring so it contributes to the game other than just sitting around, babysitting the Seer.