The 6e Paradigm Shift, and fitting Dark Eldar in

Murkglow wrote:

Siegfried VII wrote:

I will never use allies and I haven't used allies in any miniature games I've played that allowed such a thing. In m y opinion it ruins the fluff in a terrible way and ruins the world setting of the game.

How? Don't get me wrong, there are allies I don't agree with (I much prefer the fluff where necrons were killers of everything so to me they shouldn't have allies much like the Nids can't for example) but Space Marines and say Imperial Guard? How does that alliance not make sense or ruin fluff? Tau and most anyone else? Tau practically fall over themselves wanting allies (Tau is another example of a "problem" I have with allies, Imperial Guard are worse allies to Tau then Space Marines which makes no sense IMO given Tau's Human Auxiliaries but...). Allies do makes sense in fluff in a number of ways. That said I don't think they are mandatory in any way so by all means don't use them if you don't want to.

You are right that there are certain alliances that make sense, but the way gw has handled it is crappy at best. There should have been much more limitations in alliances and the ammount of armies pairing with another one.

Siegfried VII, I'm going to assume you meant no offense. But really, allies are part of the rules AND the fluff, read carefully about the Desperate Allies situations with the Tau, Daemons, and Slamanders in our codex. And there is next to no serious, healthy discussion on the internet playing Dark Eldar the best we can by the rules - which includes allies. If you don't want to, that's your personal choice, but it's invading a thread to force your choice on others, you aren't defending.

Nobody needs defending either. Lots of people here have written their own fanfiction, nobody can take the enjoyment they get doing that away from them. And have you missed all the great hobbyists? Go look at the conversions and painting here. Everyone must do this right now.
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So Orks are a really neat idea. I'm wondering how they would work with big Wrack squads.

Normally squads of 10 Warriors fold if they're your only Troop choices, and are relegated to hiding in cover and pointing Splinter Rifles out with "Kabal country - KEEP OUT" signs next to their pet hogs. Sure, they have neato poison guns, but you need to keep their attention elsewhere.

Big blobs of Orks barelling toward the enemy is a sufficient distraction, wouldn't you say? You could run 4-5 squads of 30x Shoota Boyz as your blob/forward objective claimers. Having them barrel into the enemy while you shoot them apart is really great. Add a pair of grot squads to camp backfield objectives and you're set!

For Dark Eldar fire support, you really don't need Venoms - Orks can handle assault and anti-infantry fire fine. Taking a ton of Dark Lances is very helpful for mowing through vehicles and MEQs; since you're not trying to score anyway, you can probably just grab a pair of Warrior squads with Dark Lances, or a pair of Haywire Wych squads, and some Raider Transports rather than the Orks' unreliable Grot artillery.

Trueborn with paired Dark Lances and a Ravager would nicely round all that out, as would Duke Sliscus; since you're Desperate Allies, you don't want to crowd your Ork hordes with giant Raider hulls, you really just want them to harass. Now that Reserves happen faster and more reliably, Deep Striking them in is a solid option if you want to make your empty Raiders and Ravager like ersatz-Daemons who come in waves and wreck the Armor your Orks will struggle with.

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My issue with Wraithguard is... they're 400 points. They're not really that good, particularly if you consider how many armies take things specifically to negate marine armor, and that those things are rarely less than Strength 6 anyway. Baron is terrific, but you've invested 25% of your army in one unit of 12 dudes who move 6" a turn. Are you sure you're still playing Eldar at that point?

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Squierboy, I'm interested as to why you feel Plasma Guns are that much different than what DE have access to.

You've spent a lot of points on upgrades, many of which seem unecessary. How often do your Wyches get charged? Often enough to need defensive grenades? Do you actually use the 6" from Night Shields to stay out of range or do you -be honest- use it as a safety net to not pay attention to where your vehicles are? I urge you to try pitting that many points worth of Wyches against that many points worth of various Marines, IG Platoons with Power Axe Sergeants, and Orks. These are some of the most common melee threats, and if nobody where you live runs any, of these, you don't want to tell them. 6 Wyches won't survive the common melee threats of 6th edition.

What confuses me is you could've ran a Chaos Army, and more or less the same amount of DE as allies. You chose:

Succubus, VB (70)
5xwarriors, blaster + venom, SC, NS (135)
5xwarriors, blaster + venom, SC, NS (135)
6xwyches, HWG, hekatrix VB,PGL + Raider, disintegrator, NS (167)
9xRJB, 3xHL, champ, VB (249)
Ravager, NS (115)
Ravager, NS (115)

Succubus, Power Lance (Lelith's model with the impaler is GREAT for this) 80
3 Trueborn, Blasters, Venom 146
5 Wyches, Haywire, Venom 125
5 Wyches, Haywire, Venom 125
9 Reaver Jetbikes, 3 Blasters 243
Ravager 105

This is 144 points less. Granted, you lose 1 of 2 Ravagers, but why is it better?

The Warriors with 1 Blaster really don't do much. Either they force the Venom to get them in range (your Vehicles should be staying 36" away and shooting or dropping Wyches off and then moving back) or they have to run to their target on foot. By running Trueborn, who don't score anyway, you can drop them off with the Wyches and they present another major threat.

You don't want to keep them inside, the whole goal is to give the Trueborn and the Wyches an initial boost forward, and retreat backward shooting. This is the closest anyone ever got to a "successful Raider Rush" if such a thing even existed, our vehicles are flimsy and were never capable of gunboating. Instead, they're a springboard for assault troops and short-range fire that then become mobile artillery. Night Shields aren't useful at all when you drop your stuff off and then form a wall in front of the Ravager so it gets cover

VVV
_R_

the R is the Ravager, which is taller than the Venoms and can shoot over without giving cover but still benefit from cover.

So by making DE the Ally, you get to use Wyches and Trueborn aggressively as tank hunters. Meanwhile, your Night Lords can ctach up behind in the wake of the terror they sow. They bond over a mutual love of scaring their enemies! Awwww...

As for the Reavers, you really want to just flat-out everywhere. The turn you don't flat out is to shoot the blasters, where the extra 9" range absolutely matters, as you need to move into maximum range (18"), pew pew, and then use your Eldar jetbike Assault move to pull back 6". Also Blasters are better than Heat Lances against every AV, thanks to the AP vs Vehicles changes.

So really, all you lose tactically is the Ravager. If you want, you could certainly run bigger Wych squads with CC weapons and take Raiders, but I think you'll be disappointed against a more competitive army - oh and save your points on the Phantasm and make sure your Wyches do the charging . Sounds like your Night Lords made some new friends. I hope this helps!

Just moved this to our lovely new allies section (Slaves & Mercenaries), as it's a great primer for all things allies!

Agahnim wrote:

and then use your Eldar jetbike Assault move to pull back 6".

Shame EJM is now 2d6" and not a reliable 6" any more. Makes it a lot more unpredictable.

Agahnim wrote:

Also Blasters are better than Heat Lances against every AV, thanks to the AP vs Vehicles changes.

I assume you mean at 18" range (outside melta)?

Thank you for your detailed reply Agahnim, I appreciate your input as you seem pretty switched-on. Wanting to win is not a bad thing! I would like to respond to some of your comments.

Agahnim wrote:

My issue with Wraithguard is... they're 400 points. They're not really that good, particularly if you consider how many armies take things specifically to negate marine armor, and that those things are rarely less than Strength 6 anyway. Baron is terrific, but you've invested 25% of your army in one unit of 12 dudes who move 6" a turn. Are you sure you're still playing Eldar at that point?

Not sure about your last (rhetorical?) question there....It's an all-Eldar army, I most certainly am playing Eldar! Foot-Eldar is not an uncommon occurence.

Yep, they sure are expensive just like most of the Eldar units just now. But they are hard as nails and even with all this anti-marine fire you mentioned (much of which is actually along the lines of forcing them to make a load of saves, rather than going straight through their armour), they would need a lot of attention to take down. Remember they are scoring and even moving slow (6" + D6" a turn) will present a threat that cannot be ignored except by avoiding them entirely (if your opponent has a mech army or similar). 25% of your army for allies is pretty good really, and DE can then take a load of flat-out aggressive/killy stuff. I don't run this kind of army as I don't have 10 WG and have no intention of shelling out for them!

But what I do have is this:
Farseer, ADL+quad gun, 5xfire dragons with exarch and 5xrangers.

Not exactly out-of-the-box thinking I know, but provides the following:
psychic defence (only useful part of the time, admittedly)
psychic offence
Air and deep-strike/outflanking defence
Troops that are reasonably difficult to kill (or may be ignored)
Quad gun is quite good for general anti-infantry & anti-tank fire (particulary with tank hunters & crack shot)

Agahnim wrote:

Squierboy, I'm interested as to why you feel Plasma Guns are that much different than what DE have access to.

They provide multi-shot mid-strength shooting that DE lack (disintegrators aside). They have pretty good range. I didn't need any more melta and flamers didn't seem generally threatening enough. An autocannon would be ok, but I wanted them to be a mobile threat.

Agahnim wrote:

You've spent a lot of points on upgrades, many of which seem unecessary. How often do your Wyches get charged? Often enough to need defensive grenades? Do you actually use the 6" from Night Shields to stay out of range or do you -be honest- use it as a safety net to not pay attention to where your vehicles are? I urge you to try pitting that many points worth of Wyches against that many points worth of various Marines, IG Platoons with Power Axe Sergeants, and Orks. These are some of the most common melee threats, and if nobody where you live runs any, of these, you don't want to tell them. 6 Wyches won't survive the common melee threats of 6th edition.

The PGL helps when charging, giving the wyches some protection vs overwatch, and also helps if they have to hunker down and hold a position (say at the end of a game). The wyches go with the succubus btw, and she helps in assault a lot. Really they have a dual role, as they can take out vehicles with HWG also. I'm not sold on them, but i'm going to give them a fair run....I certainly prefer them over those little 5-man HWG teams that seem far too easy to kill (& cannot even score in your lists) and have only one role that they are far from likely to achieve.

NS have helped me vs rapid fire and melta weapons & any other mid-range stuff, but again I'm not sold on them! They may go if I need the points. I do pre-measure as any half-decent player would & take the NS into account - sometimes they are handy, other times not.

I think my six wyches (97pts btw) can take on equiv-points worth of those units your mentioned - 5 tac marines=90pts, i'd say that's a win for the DE after shooting then assault. Imperial guard? Well the hekatrix challenges the chap wth the axe and the rest slaughter the T3 5+ guardsmen. Orks they avoid! But I digress.

Agahnim wrote:

What confuses me is you could've ran a Chaos Army, and more or less the same amount of DE as allies.

I wanted the DE as primary so I could take more DE vehicles for target saturation purposes, but your alternative is perfectly acceptable (HWG wyches aside) & does of course free up the Night Lords to take scoring troops.

I don't like your tactics of 'dropping off' wyches & trueborn - they should stay on the transports until they find a good reason to get off or the transport is wrecked. The NS and jink saves help keep them going, along with presenting lots of targets. That's why warrior squads are useful, as they can shoot from the transport, then take cover in the wreckage if it's popped.

Agahnim wrote:

VVV
_R_

the R is the Ravager, which is taller than the Venoms and can shoot over without giving cover but still benefit from cover.

Just keep the ravager moving and use the jink save, although this tactic is useful on turn 1 or course.

Agahnim wrote:

They bond over a mutual love of scaring their enemies! Awwww...

Yeah, it's sweet really!

I won't discuss blasters vs heat lances on RJBs as I reckon there's a thread already running on that, suffice it to say that having melta weapons on a super-fast platform adds something the rest of the list does not provide.

Agahnim wrote:

Sounds like your Night Lords made some new friends. I hope this helps!

It has certainly got me thinking, thanks again!