The Transition from Eldar to Dark Eldar Technology

Fellow Atchons:

It is well known that the Dark Kin do not use the psycho-reactive materials held in such high esteem by the Craftworlders. Allow me to make an observation before posing my question.

From what I understand, Craftworld technology operates on the same bases as Empire technology before the fall: the Eldar Empire of old used wraithbone and other psycho-reactive materials in manufacturing. My understanding is that Dark Eldar operate a much more conventional industrial apparatus. There are master prints designed by Dark Eldar tradesmen that are produced by a slave labor force in factories.

How did this transition occur? I ask because such a fundamental shift in production methods, materials available, and operator capabilities (be careful not to use mind magic) would constitute a massive challenge to any society. The True Kin would have had to basically regress to our level in terms of production capacity, master factory production, and then integrate non-psychic technologies into the mundane constructs. I understand that Eldar are hyper intelligent but that seems like a massive gap to overcome. Help me out here.

I feel like your question presumes that they hadn't already mastered factory type production prior to developing wraithbone. If they had, then the step sideways would have simply become a step back, and not as big of a challenge - certainly not amongst the chaos of the Post Fall Empire.

It's like asking how difficult it would be for humans to handle discovering fire and the wheel again. Since we have done it, and the knowledge that such exists is already part of our basic education, the "rediscovery" of them would be quite easy post apocalypse. Even stuff like electricity would be easier because we would understand it could be done, and would likely be able to unearth ample writings about it to educate ourselves.

Also, and probably more importantly, there have always been stories about the risk of using psychic powers within the Webway and how it affects Chaos/Immaterium (read: the Emperor lulz adventure w. Magnus in the Webway) it is highly likely that the Eldar already used materials and building devices in the Webway that were non-wraithbone and required factory manufacture and that there was hardly a blip in that transition as very little had to be changed at all.

I think a more apt description would be thus:

You have a devastating apocalypse that destroys the majority of the population and most centers of higher learning. Not only is civilization in ruins and large portions of technology/artifice difficult to recover (because of demons, madmen, nuclear fallout, whatever) you also cannot use iron derivatives or computers because their use could summon demonic entities. Although there are substitutes for iron and computers, e.g., aluminum and the human mind, the logistical problems would be immense, particularly as the stores of such information (computers) would be inaccessible.

Now, compound that with all of the societal problems associated with the Fall. The basic lack of trust alone would be a huge blow to any R&D. Now couple that with a society that is constantly at war with itself and the galaxy at large.

That's not to say that it could not be done (which it obviously was) although how it was done is...elusive...


Edit: Oh, second point, how you shed much more light on this question. Sorry Thor!

Also, remember that Commoragh and most of the satellite realms already existed and were not destroyed in the Fall. There was upheaval and deaths, yes, but your example is clearly not a reasonable metaphor since they maintained a lot of their already existing infrastructure.

Thor665 wrote:

Also, remember that Commoragh and most of the satellite realms already existed and were not destroyed in the Fall. There was upheaval and deaths, yes, but your example is clearly not a reasonable metaphor since they maintained a lot of their already existing infrastructure.

I suppose an important question is when the Dark Eldar actually decided using psychic powers/materials was a bad thing as that would dictate how their society could transition (explore new production methods, tear down old infrastructure, make new infrastructure, and so on).

I still think it's likely that it was always that way. When the Emperor was busting into the Webway one of the biggest dangers to him was psychic powers being used there. So I suspect it's actually an intrinsic part of interaction with the Webway. It's quite possible that the Eldar living there had already moved away from wraithbone as a matter of need.

Now, perhaps, if everything was being imported from outside, that's an issue - but the fluff indicates that societies were living there to hide their depravity, so one tends to presume they had already set themselves up a nice little ecosystem prior to The Fall ever happening.

What an interesting question!

We might ask what the naturally non psychic Eldar might do...not all of them have this ability.

Tengu wrote:

What an interesting question!

We might ask what the naturally non psychic Eldar might do...not all of them have this ability.

Codex: Eldar says that all Eldar have psychic abilities and suggests that the Eldar of old could do all sorts of wacky things. Black Library's own Path series strongly suggests that not having psychic powers would make life extremely difficult (you wouldn't be able to interact with anything on a Craftworld very well, if at all).

How Dark Eldar society transitioned would be a difficult question to address. On the one hand, Thor is right to point out that really bad things can happen with psychic powers in the webway and it would make sense that the Eldar would have developed less...vulnerable tools and production methods. On the other hand, there are whole Craftworlds (the Black Library, Lugganath, random ports described in Path of the Outcast) that appear to be functioning just fine.

Whatever the answer may be, it could only do the Dark Kin credit. If they had to rebuild their society from scratch, then they're that much more competent than the Craftworlders (more numerous and roughly equal level of technology despite a lower base and a less collaborative society). If they didn't, then they are still the true inheritors of the Old Empire that managed to go from an "endangered species" to a "thriving, albeit horrible civilization."

Dark Eldar didn't lose their psychic ability overnight, it's aptrohied from unuase and selective breeding against psykers. So it could be that after the Fall the survivors, mindful of the danger use of psychic abilities in the Webway posessed, especially now that there was a god trying to eat their souls, might've decuded to phase out the psychoreactive tech, replacing it over time with more mundane technology that performs the same function.

The Dark Eldar could still use psychic powers if they wanted to. The fact is most of them aren't that stupid, and if they were they would be hounded and killed by everyone around them who understood how stupid it is to do so.

All Eldar are psykers, it's just that only the certain paths like Warlocks and Farseers focus said ability to be useful on the battlefield, so the other Eldar units don't count as psykers in-game.

As for rate of industrial production, that's what the insane number of slaves they bring in is for. It wouldn't be hard for them to come up with some ideas for guns, make up a prototype, develop it and put it into mass production. If we can do it here on Earth, the Dark Eldar, already set up in their webway realms, certainly can.

I have to agree with Anggul.
In a race that is universally psychic it would be virtually impossible to breed out that trait entirely over ten thousand years. For a species that lives for over a thousand years and some dark elder live much longer. (The harlequin section of the codex suggests that some of the dark elder remember the fall.) That's not many generations to bread out a universal trait.

Thor is probably right about the infrastructure already being in place. It sounds like the dark elder ancestors had their own subculture inside the webway long before the fall.

The ancient elder may well have relied upon a mix of both dark elder manufacturing and traditional eldar production. With the fall the dark eldar switched to manufacturing entirely because of the new eldar hungry god. The craftworld eldar, strapped for resources, switched entirely to wraithbone construction which only needs a bonesinger with no real raw starting material besides psychic energy. That's how I see it anyways, though I don't think there is a plethora of evidence one way or another.

Ehm both use a similar tech, you underestimate the dark kin way too much. It's not because they use the same materials as humans that it's the same. The fuel they use is much more advanced, they're simply much smarter, even with the same materials, they still make something completely different.

Dark eldar tech is actually more advanced, though not that much. Several things to confirms this: the suns kept in Commorragh, actualyl kept in a different dimension that kind of overlaps the webway, it's very complicated, in any case it's something very old and complicated. The webway tech is much more advanced clearly, they can even get into a craftworld, clearly proving they're the masters of webway travel, some of the weapons are similar, different tech, but same result, but not always.
dark Lance vs eldar lance, same stats and special rules, different appearance and different tech, laser vs dark matter, but same results in the end.
The shreder and warp spider guns, same tech, but a different result, this is also tech also used on harlequins kisses.

Another very interesting piece of tech used by 3 eldar factions:
The venom. You have harlequins and corsairs who use their own type of venoms, both based on a wraithbone construction similar in design to the craftworld vyper, weapons are different though, some minor design changes too.
Then you have the dark eldar venom, similar design, but still some noticable differences, not that much based on the eldar vyper.

eldar Corsairs and harlequins have a similar tech to the craftworlds, harlquins have better webway tech like the eldar though, but all same tech, wraithbone based, most same weapons.
Some corsairs do mix both craftworld and dark eldar tech, but not that they produce those themselves, usually just leftovers from previous alliances.

Now Amongst the dark eldar, aristocrats may still use some of the old empire tech, may also use some of the old designs.

Another interesting fact I haven't seen mentioned: antigravity engines and main engines on skimmers are basically the same, some very minor differences, but they actaully look like eachothers twins. Different materials were used, but the end designs are almost the same, but they also perform exactly the same.

Some people may remember the old munitions based on wraithbone. removed from the codex, but still exist, dark eldar clearly do understand craftwork tech completely, they can even use it if neccessary.

While I'm not sure how canon it is, Dan Abnett's Iron Snakes novel does point to Dark Eldar 1) occupying worlds outside the webway as their own and 2) having psykers who can addle the mind of a Space Marine Librarian. This was written before the 5th Ed. codex, IIRC, so I don't know how well it stacks up BUT it's also Dan Abnett, who is given a lot of leeway by GW.

If Dark Eldar do indeed create their own little kingdoms in the temporal realm and have little circles of psykers, that'd be a whole new kettle of fish.

I am curious why people seem to think I'm short changing the Dark Eldar. However, that means that everything from guns to ships that used any sort of psychic connection would be a no-no. If anything, I'm giving them more credit by suggesting that they could reach parity (or superiority) to Craftworld Eldar without using "traditional" materials and production methods. I also did not suggest that they simply "lost" their ability to use psychic powers--they do not use them by decree.

This question is irrelevant if the decision to stop using psychic powers was done prior to developing a parallel infrastructure, if Dark Eldar were not psychic prior to the fall, or if only Farseer and Warlock powers are off limits.

It's a very simple why: it's a very complicated matter.

To begin with the fact that not everybody is familiar with the fluff, that's sadly not even applicable for the dark eldar players themselves, some people just don't care or don't bother reading the fluff, yet those same people are always bound to get themselves stuck in a fluff talk.

The eldar psykers are very complicated, more than most other psyker because of the powers they control and because of the fact that psykers are the builders of craftworld tech, which is the original eldar building method used in ancient times.

Now the thing is, any eldar psyker, chaos worshipper or a normal eldar seer is bound to come in contact with chaos while summoning his powers. It's sad to admit but it's a source of power.
The most advanced psykers can summon their powers with a minimal danger, but it's still there. A psyker that's just learning will eventually start making his first encounters with deamons while learning to control his powers. All of this can lead to a deamon opening a portal into the dimension, whether it's the webway or our reality.

All eldar have that psychic potential, but simply don't use it. Dark Eldar can't use it, because they risk opening a rift into their city, that has actually happened, that's exactly why Vect has banned all psykers from Commorragh.

Now does this mean Commorragh has no psykers ?No. Enslaved from from other races, captures eldar seers. A pretty funny contradiction is the Shadowseer, they are psykers, but they are allowed in Commorragh. There's no fluff on this, but either their powers aren't strong enough to attract deamons or they simply use no powers when they enter Commorragh.
2 deamon infestations are described in the codex, both these realms were immediately cut off and isolated, that part of the webway was lost to deamons forever.

Dark Eldar having psykers makes perfect sence, it's even 100% confirmed: Take the Corsair armylist and fluff found in the FW IA Doom of Mymeara, corsairs have a seer of their own, they have eldar based units and dark eldar ones. Now a full dark eldar corsair band, not returning to Commorragh anymore can perfectly afford to have a psyker, in fact it's probably even encouraged to look into the future to keep them safe.

I can actually name 2 example of psyker like individuals found in the codex amongst our units:
-Lady Malys: she can see in the future. It's not inplicitely said, but that sounds awfully like a seer, what a weird coincidence, she's eldar and can see in the future, sounds exactly like what farseers can do.
-beastmasters: they capture Khymera in their dreams. Eldar seers also go into a dream like state to control their powers and see into the future, though a very minor form, beastmasters powers can somehow be linked to their psychic capabilities. It is said old eldar knew how to bound deamons to their own will, that's exactly what beastmasters do with the Khymera.

What about the likes of the Decap, who has no eyes and presumably uses the spirit sight?

(But I imagine he spends a lot of time in total darkness anyway)

Khain mor wrote:

It's a very simple why: it's a very complicated matter.

To begin with the fact that not everybody is familiar with the fluff, that's sadly not even applicable for the dark eldar players themselves, some people just don't care or don't bother reading the fluff, yet those same people are always bound to get themselves stuck in a fluff talk.

The eldar psykers are very complicated, more than most other psyker because of the powers they control and because of the fact that psykers are the builders of craftworld tech, which is the original eldar building method used in ancient times.

Now the thing is, any eldar psyker, chaos worshipper or a normal eldar seer is bound to come in contact with chaos while summoning his powers. It's sad to admit but it's a source of power.
The most advanced psykers can summon their powers with a minimal danger, but it's still there. A psyker that's just learning will eventually start making his first encounters with deamons while learning to control his powers. All of this can lead to a deamon opening a portal into the dimension, whether it's the webway or our reality.

All eldar have that psychic potential, but simply don't use it. Dark Eldar can't use it, because they risk opening a rift into their city, that has actually happened, that's exactly why Vect has banned all psykers from Commorragh.

Now does this mean Commorragh has no psykers ?No. Enslaved from from other races, captures eldar seers. A pretty funny contradiction is the Shadowseer, they are psykers, but they are allowed in Commorragh. There's no fluff on this, but either their powers aren't strong enough to attract deamons or they simply use no powers when they enter Commorragh.
2 deamon infestations are described in the codex, both these realms were immediately cut off and isolated, that part of the webway was lost to deamons forever.

Dark Eldar having psykers makes perfect sence, it's even 100% confirmed: Take the Corsair armylist and fluff found in the FW IA Doom of Mymeara, corsairs have a seer of their own, they have eldar based units and dark eldar ones. Now a full dark eldar corsair band, not returning to Commorragh anymore can perfectly afford to have a psyker, in fact it's probably even encouraged to look into the future to keep them safe.

I can actually name 2 example of psyker like individuals found in the codex amongst our units:
-Lady Malys: she can see in the future. It's not inplicitely said, but that sounds awfully like a seer, what a weird coincidence, she's eldar and can see in the future, sounds exactly like what farseers can do.
-beastmasters: they capture Khymera in their dreams. Eldar seers also go into a dream like state to control their powers and see into the future, though a very minor form, beastmasters powers can somehow be linked to their psychic capabilities. It is said old eldar knew how to bound deamons to their own will, that's exactly what beastmasters do with the Khymera.

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, I don't think you are appreciating my point. Dark Eldar, by and large, do not use psychic powers. Psychic powers are the mainstay of (Craftworld) Eldar technology both in terms of manufacturing and use. If you were to read Path of the Warriors, Path of the Seer, or Path of the Renegade you would notice that everything from guns to taxis to spacecraft are dependent on psychic powers, to a certain extent. Path of the Renegade, Path of the Incubus, and Codex: Dark Eldar all give examples of psykers in the Dark City but these exceptions prove the rule: psychic powers are forbidden and rare. We both agree that Dark Eldar do not/cannot use their inherent psychic powers for fear of attracting warp entities.

Where we seem to be having an argument is with this strange idea that you seem to think I'm short changing Dark Eldar intelligence. My contention was that many technologies and stores of information would be very difficult to use if psychic powers were unavailable. Imagine for a minute if human civilization could not use ferrous metals or computers in manufacturing. That would create massive production and logistical problems.

Clearly, if the Dark Eldar got around this bottleneck through sheer wit, it would be like playing golf with a hefty handicap while not using your dominant hand and then routinely beating people at golf. It would be very impressive to say the least.

Tengu wrote:

What about the likes of the Decap, who has no eyes and presumably uses the spirit sight?

(But I imagine he spends a lot of time in total darkness anyway)

Clearly, he is a bat.