Lack of Grenades in 7th Edition

So, is this really the big deal we're all making it out to be?  Sure, we lost grenades pretty much everywhere (except characters & wyches...) but since in 7th edition vehicles no longer leave wreckage, and area terrain has gone the way of the dodo, are we really that hampered?  I mean obviously charging over a wall, or over a wreck is going to slow us down, but with canny objective placement & use of our fast vehicles we surely should be able to line up good charges without placing our models in terrain...

of a note, are wyches our new sacrificial lambs?  Sent to charge into combat with the hopes one survives, thereby engaging a unit in combat & allowing a unit of incubi to charge in right after & swing at initiative?

I do not think the loss of grenades (and lets face it all people really care about is the HWG on wyches) are a big deal. because as a replacement we have been given HWB on scourges which are by far a better model

However your point on wyches. their best roll now i think is dust collectors on the shelf.

Fine you can take away the HWG ( the only thing that made them viable) but if GW still want people to use them still, thier dodge ability needs to be active in ASSAULT PHASE, not the fight sub phase. so you can get the close combat troops INTO close combat.

It seems to me that wyches and their grenade-less friends can complement each other.

By setting both some wyches and some incubi (or reavers, grots, wracks) on a target at the same time, the incubi soak the overwatch fire that wyches are so allergic to, then the wyches knock down a few dudes at their initiative to make life easier for their poor grenade-less friends.

Or, as you mentioned, leave the main squad back and hope for a surviving wych to hang in there, so long as there is no big shooty threat that will devastate them in the meantime.

clever handle wrote:

and area terrain has gone the way of the dodo

Why do you say this?

Ispa wrote:

... but if GW still want people to use them still, thier dodge ability needs to be active in ASSAULT PHASE, not the fight sub phase. so you can get the close combat troops INTO close combat.

I would rather say 5++ during Charge Sub-Phase. Something like "Quickbronze Dodge" ;-)
But what you don't realise that their save got upgraded, as vehicles can explode during the fight sub-phase, which you can dodge right now.

But, back on topic.

No assault grenades can be avoided, by pinning units, sadly all pinning weapons got changed or dropped out of the codex. So the next best thing is to present a load of AP2 shooting to force the unit to go-to-ground. That way you are no longer slowed down by charging through terrain.
But this seems to be a sub-optimal solution too.

Multiple units assaulting the same target might also work, but I rather check the rules wording on that first. As far as I recall it didn't mention if the target is already locked in combat, but it should as it makes sense.

I'm trying to keep use Wyches (as I found it dumb anyway for them to do AT-hunting, nothing gladiator about that). They now got FnP for free and I'm not that afraid of snap-shots, only templates freak me out in 7th edition.

Incubi might not be hurt so bad as they have decent saves to stay up long enough to hit back.
The other option is to join an IC in the assault unit, so it get reduce the numbers of the hits coming in before I1 step.

It seems we have to live with the fact that DE are staying in Tier 2. We can hit hard but the stars need to align to make it really happen. So a finesse army which gets more durable as the turns pass. I might even say that we have the most durable T3 based army out there.

There is no area terrain in 7th edition.

Guys can someone point me to a page where it says that charging without grenades into already running melee strikes at ini?

aurynn wrote:

There is no area terrain in 7th edition.

Guys can someone point me to a page where it says that charging without grenades into already running melee strikes at ini?

No page number handy, but its in the multiple combats section of the assault chapter with heading 'Difficult Terrain and Ongoing Combats'.

nope I was mistaken,

BRB p.55

Quote :

If a unit charges into a multiple combat in which all the enemy units are locked in combat from a previous turn, the initiative penalty for charging through difficult terrain does not apply

emphasis mine. Nevermind, wyches can become lahmians just as hellions have become beastmasters...

clever handle wrote:

nope I was mistaken,

BRB p.55

Quote :

If a unit charges into a multiple combat in which all the enemy units are locked in combat from a previous turn, the initiative penalty for charging through difficult terrain does not apply

emphasis mine.  Nevermind, wyches can become lahmians just as hellions have become beastmasters...

This means you can use the Wyches first and then charge the Incubi 2nd.

Yup. Thats what I needed, thanks.

PainReaver wrote:

This means you can use the Wyches first and then charge the Incubi 2nd.

But you can't do it on the same turn (as the rule says "from a previous turn". You would have to charge the wyches in turn X and the incubi turn X+1.

Well the trouble is that wyches wont hold 2 assault phases against any unit that really matters.

Just want to point out that the lack of grenades is limited to Xenos races. About every Imperial unit comes with grenades standard. Because, well, we are talking about GW here.

Mandor wrote:

Just want to point out that the lack of grenades is limited to Xenos races. About every Imperial unit comes with grenades standard. Because, well, we are talking about GW here.

even boys come stock with stickbombs now.... I think its because they went and made eldar grenades so OP - I mean come on, S4, AP4 blast compared to imperial S3 AP-? No wonder we can't take those everywhere, we'd simply wreck face with all our grenades

clever handle wrote:

Mandor wrote:

Just want to point out that the lack of grenades is limited to Xenos races. About every Imperial unit comes with grenades standard. Because, well, we are talking about GW here.

even boys come stock with stickbombs now.... I think its because they went and made eldar grenades so OP - I mean come on, S4, AP4 blast compared to imperial S3 AP-?  No wonder we can't take those everywhere, we'd simply wreck face with all our grenades

s4 ap4 can actually do quite a number on guardsmen, fire warriors, ork boyz etc.

Personally i'd think they just remove the entire charge into cover, strike at initiative 1 rule. As if a little dust will make an incubi forget how to match blades.

Oh I know. only game this past weekend I tossed a plasma grenade at a unit of roughriders who were standing next to some dark angels I was planning on combi-charging... killed 4/5 roughriders & the survivor ran away, leaving me unable to charge=(

I can top that: Playing against Orks, the Hekatrix threw a grenade at some grots...only to roll boxcars and an arrow pointing at her unit. Managed to glance the Trukk the wyches were using for cover, in addition to killing one of their own.

The PayneTrayn wrote:

I can top that: Playing against Orks, the Hekatrix threw a grenade at some grots...only to roll boxcars and an arrow pointing at her unit. Managed to glance the Trukk the wyches were using for cover, in addition to killing one of their own.

Hekatrix must either have dropped it, or hit the hull of the Trukk, or it just flew backwards in defiance of all physics.