Kabalite Warriors - The New Melee Unit

So, having been looking at things like the Kabalite Raiding Party recently, I began doing some preliminary list-building. I think, at least as far as the Kabalite Raiding Party formation goes, that we should consider using Kabalite Warriors in both a shooting and melee role by giving them a Sybarite with a CC weapon upgrade. It will cost us 25-35 points per unit, but will enable us to take advantage of the warriors' strengths over the entirety of the game.

Some here have claimed that early game, warriors are better, while late in the game, wyches begin to outshine them. It's my opinion that by arming our Kabalites with a seargent upgrade and melee weapon, they will be as effective as they need to be in melee later in the game, and we will be able to push the Power From Pain rules into effect faster by using things like the Kabalite Raiding Party, the Animus Vitae, and Urien's father of pain rule. If you combine the 3 of them, you can potentially have Feel no pain, furious charge, and fearless by turn 2. With those special rules on melee upgraded warriors, I like their chances in CC against many units, at least compared to those that wyches would be effective against.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

So, having been looking at things like the Kabalite Raiding Party recently, I began doing some preliminary list-building. I think, at least as far as the Kabalite Raiding Party formation goes, that we should consider using Kabalite Warriors in both a shooting and melee role by giving them a Sybarite with a CC weapon upgrade. It will cost us 25-35 points per unit, but will enable us to take advantage of the warriors' strengths over the entirety of the game.

Some here have claimed that early game, warriors are better, while late in the game, wyches begin to outshine them. It's my opinion that by arming our Kabalites with a seargent upgrade and melee weapon, they will be as effective as they need to be in melee later in the game, and we will be able to push the Power From Pain rules into effect faster by using things like the Kabalite Raiding Party, the Animus Vitae, and Urien's father of pain rule. If you combine the 3 of them, you can potentially have Feel no pain, furious charge, and fearless by turn 2. With those special rules on melee upgraded warriors, I like their chances in CC against many units, at least compared to those that wyches would be effective against.

Interesting idea..you could pay for some of it by replacing the blaster with a syberite with haywire...
Would you grab an agonizer or power sword? The same idea can be applied to scourges as well. They maybe more expensive, but the have plasma grenades (Lord knows why) and hammer of wrath and the have assault guns so they can fire before charging..

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

The same idea can be applied to scourges as well. They maybe more expensive, but the have plasma grenades (Lord knows why) and hammer of wrath and the have assault guns so they can fire before charging..

Yeah, I agree. They also have 4+ armor saves and 6+ invulns. I actually mentioned this in my in-depth review of the codex. I actually think scourges are one of, if not our most versatile unit at this point. They're capable of cracking open vehicles, shooting infantry, they get 12" movement, and they can handle themselves in CC if geared for it.

Unfortunately, they're not troop options like warriors are.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

The same idea can be applied to scourges as well. They maybe more expensive, but the have plasma grenades (Lord knows why) and hammer of wrath and the have assault guns so they can fire before charging..

Yeah, I agree. They also have 4+ armor saves and 6+ invulns. I actually mentioned this in my in-depth review of the codex. I actually think scourges are one of, if not our most versatile unit at this point. They're capable of cracking open vehicles, shooting infantry, they get 12" movement, and they can handle themselves in CC if geared for it.

Unfortunately, they're not troop options like warriors are.

True. You can get six of them as well though.
Someone mentioned charging a unit of 10 warriors warriors in on turn 6 for 30 strength 4 attacks.. for an 8 point unit that's really juicy.. with your combo you could get that turn three.
Link to your codex review?

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

The same idea can be applied to scourges as well. They maybe more expensive, but the have plasma grenades (Lord knows why) and hammer of wrath and the have assault guns so they can fire before charging..

Yeah, I agree. They also have 4+ armor saves and 6+ invulns. I actually mentioned this in my in-depth review of the codex. I actually think scourges are one of, if not our most versatile unit at this point. They're capable of cracking open vehicles, shooting infantry, they get 12" movement, and they can handle themselves in CC if geared for it.

Unfortunately, they're not troop options like warriors are.

True. You can get six of them as well though.
Someone mentioned charging a unit of 10 warriors warriors in on turn 6 for 30 strength 4 attacks.. for an 8 point unit that's really juicy.. with your combo you could get that turn three.
Link to your codex review?

It was me - worked quite nicely actually, but yeah I agree if you can tweak a list to get them there earlier they might be even more useful. I mainly did it just to see if it was viable - I had a Succubus with a glaive that I could have used but it was only a test game and given PfP seems intended to make our individual units stronger in the latter stages I thought it would be worthwhile to see if in games where it matters it would be worth trying.

Of course, with rapid fire weapons, you'd have to balance the probabilities of shooting a unit off versus charging in, but in this case the model i wanted dead was already in combat so shooting it wasn't an option.

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:

Link to your codex review?

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t10147-7th-edition-codex-review-analysis

You know, I always thought taking a Sybarite was a good idea - even as a 'just in case' you get into melee you can do something. I figure Haywire is good to take as another just in case something gets close you can toss one. What other weapons do you think are good for a Sybarite?

Ciirian wrote:

You know, I always thought taking a Sybarite was a good idea - even as a 'just in case' you get into melee you can do something.

I actually never really thought sybarite's were a good idea before. 2 things changed that. First, our Anti-vehicle wyches were also somewhat good at melee, and so, they filled the roll of attacking things in CC that I would consider attacking with a sybarite/warriors. That has changed. Without their superior anti-tank ability, wyches aren't really enough better at CC than warriors to justify taking them.

Second, Power from Pain changed how we gain our pain powers, and gave us a formation, and other ways to advance those powers quicker.

With a combination of deep strike, formation, artefact, and haemonculous, it's possible for our warriors to have feel no pain, fearless, and furious charge before anyone can possibly target them. (assuming a turn 2 deep strike)

A dracon would be even more formidable in CC with his additional attack, and since trueborn get 2 attacks base, they could be a force to be reckoned with in CC. 10 Trueborn with dracon generate 41 S4 attacks on the charge with furious charge, and you can make 5 of those attacks have AP3 and/or poison on the Dracon.

Still no grenades. Which is a shame, honestly makes me wish warriors had carbines and grenades.

Trueborn could have started with Carbines :<

Mushkilla wrote:

Still no grenades. Which is a shame, honestly makes me wish warriors had carbines and grenades.

As I see it for now, grenades are a fairly big deal. From my reading init capping to 1 always applies if at least one model charged through cover. (I haven't found any remarks about charging enemies which are already locked in combat.)

So yeah, no I 5 on the charge quite sucks to get those Rage, FC attacks matter.

It is true that PfP improves CC ability of all PfP units. In my logic it is even better on Assault specialist. I get now it that loosing HwG on Wyches is a big hit but they were OP and stupid to begin with. [On a side note it is strange that Eldar IC's get them automatically though. But I guess that has something to do with the power level of that codex (=broken)]

Looking at combat, it is true that armour penetration is less frequent than in shooting but if an enemy has it, it will be surely AP5 or better. This still gives a very high advantage on Wyches in CC.

Sure Warriors also can shoot and late-game assault in some situations. Wyches lack ranged but can go in CC from Turn 2 onwards and be effective (which is locking enemies in CC). So no, Warriors aren't the next assault troop choice.

Remember though that there is no such thing as area terrain any more, so charging through terrain is less common (though obviously charing into a ruin/forest or over a wall still counts). Honestly though with the maneouvrability of our units charging over something like an aegis line shouldn't happen too often.

I don't think anyone is saying that warriors are better than wyches in combat (and quite honestly anyone that does needs to re-read the rules) as at the same point in the game (for PfP bonuses etc) Wyches will always get an extra attack each, possibly two (or at a higher strength/WS depending on drugs). The point though is that with furious charge and rage, warriors can be an option in assault. 20 S3 attacks (probably what you'd have had before) versus 30 S4 attacks is a significant change - more than 4 wounds on average against Marines before saves, and 7 against guard equivalents - that can be the difference between tying a combat or winning it.

El_Jairo wrote:

Sure Warriors also can shoot and late-game assault in some situations. Wyches lack ranged but can go in CC from Turn 2 onwards and be effective (which is locking enemies in CC). So no, Warriors aren't the next assault troop choice.

The difference is, wyches aren't included in our formation that gives a bonus to the pfp chart, they suffer from an inability to make it into CC alive, and have piss poor shooting. Warriors, on the other hand, are good at shooting, have an OK armor save to make it through overwatch, and are part of the formation that advances the PfP chart, thus gaining FnP, Furious Charge, and Fearless earlier than wyches.

So basically, warriors are better to begin with at range(as ALL units start out unable to assault), and get better at CC faster, while being more surviveable until they get there. Are they going to slaughter things as if they were Incubi when they arrive? No, of course not. But neither would wyches.

I'm just pointing out that with the points drop in warriors, paired with the advancement system of the power from pain rules, warriors are far more viable in CC than they were in our last codex. And since they're unarguably better than wyches at range, are probably the most viable troop type to take en masse.

Basically, I don't know about you guys, but I'm just going to make my warriors melee capable rather than recruiting melee units with no armor, and no shooting weapon, with 6 inch movement on foot, or AV10 transports that tend to kill half their squads. Warriors are just all-around better troops in the new meta, AND, if we're taking the formation that doesn't give us OBSEC, you have the option to upgrade them to trueborn at no mechanical loss to make them even more effective in CC.

Scourges don't make bad assault units per se. May as well make use of that power lance in the box.

But don't throw them against anything with a power sword though.

As for Warriors, assault is at best situational since you have to fire at rapid fire at the range you want to charge at.

Tbh, if i were to use Warriors for assault, i'd probably use to support an existing combat. And with this in mind, i'm skeptical investing in a sybarite with power sword/aggy + haywire grenade.

Man Dark City forums is almost having its own dysjunction- from Wyches going from shelf to bff status, to unanimous approval of new reavers and now Warriors in melee.

PainReaver wrote:

Scourges don't make bad assault units per se. May as well make use of that power lance in the box.

I'm guessing that option is only in the codex because it's on the sprue already!

PainReaver wrote:

As for Warriors, assault is at best situational since you have to fire at rapid fire at the range you want to charge at.

Once you've got Rage and Furious Charge, assault is a more viable option than shooting against anything with armour better than 5+. Before that yes, it's very situational (but don't forget, being in combat prevents you getting shot at, so not a bad option...)

I don't know if I would rush them into combat unless I had to. Its an interesting idea though, late game if you get furious charge and rage anything can do well (I even had 3 scourges charge some marines off an objective!).

Late game, when you potentially have the pfp boost to allow you to put warriors into combat, chances are the kabbies are without a transport, hugging cover and taking losses, of there is a small squad then yeah I might jump on to it but I wouldn't invest points into a sybarite and power weapons. Because if they go into combat, its a last resort and I could probably find a better use of the 25/35 points on stuff that can use it. Besides, hopefully if you charge late game there wont be huge blobs anyway so basic attacks may be sufficient.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

PainReaver wrote:

Scourges don't make bad assault units per se. May as well make use of that power lance in the box.

I'm guessing that option is only in the codex because it's on the sprue already!

PainReaver wrote:

As for Warriors, assault is at best situational since you have to fire at rapid fire at the range you want to charge at.

Once you've got Rage and Furious Charge, assault is a more viable option than shooting against anything with armour better than 5+. Before that yes, it's very situational (but don't forget, being in combat prevents you getting shot at, so not a bad option...)

Aware of that.

But is it actually worth arming up a Sybarite with a melee weapon + pistol just for this alone?

I would say not, better use of the points elsewhere

^This. I think they're now viable in assault given the right conditions and timing, but spending points on them to use them purposely for this is pushing it.

Yea. Its bit like using wychez as a shooting unit. Their shooting within Rapid Fire range will be always more potent. But... if used to bog down a unit, it might... might be worth it if they can stay locked and not run away.

Come turn 5 (or 4 in some cases) they ain't gonna be running away, I'd be more worried about them being wiped out, though i guess against normal combat stuff you'd send them up against (anything without an AP in combat i mean - they ain't gonna bog down lightning claw terminators, haha!) once you add in FNP you should save more than half the wounds caused.