1st or 2nd vs IG and tau

Hey guys. Love the forum, best out there by far.

I mostly play 1750pts against Deathwing, BA, SW, GK and Orks. I run the usual 3 ravagers, warrior, trueborn blaster + venom spam only difference is my evil dual deathstars, archon + incubi and succubus + wyches in raiders. I know they're not popular but that's a discussion for a future post.

Obviously this depends on the mission and his list but i like to go second. I watch how he deploys then either, set up on his weak side, circle and take him out one unit/vehicle at a time from range, or i reserve everything, let his reserves come on then move and circle his weak side as above.

Against IG and tau with their massive firepower should i...


A. Go first (if possible) set up in the middle and pray to all that is evil that he does not seize?

B. Go second, set up on his weak side and proceed as above?

C. Go second, reserve everything, move on his weak side as above?


I understand that whatever i do target priority is paramount vs IG and Tau. Every shot must reduce the return fire. That is not my question. I also realize deathstars are overkill vs IG and tau. That also is not my question.

My opponent will be a veteran. If your running a venom/raider spam list how would you proceed?

Go first.

I am not a fan of reserving.

Especially against IG and Tau. They have so much firepower I would want to limit it as much as possible from the get go, so going second and hiding is not an option because you will still lose units.

My preference is to reduce his initial shooting. DE dish out pain and misery, we are not built to take it. hence, go first whenever possible.

If they seize, they seize, it happens and you can't really play the game or this army that effectively if you are singularly focussed on the initiative being seized. it is a consideration, but not a very big one n the grand scheme.

if you have to go second, then you will default hide or reserve. Some of my fellow archons will reserve, some won't. I'm in the later group.

Unless, and this is a pretty specific unless, the terrain is absolutely lacking in any BLOS cover. Then you almost need to reserve since you don't have anything to hide behind.

There are arguments about making your own cover, and while that is generally true for rhinos and chimeras, are skimmers are precious and getting them blown to smithereens to screen another unit really isn't the best option. In my opinion, its one of those just because you can doesn't mean you should kind of things.

My thoughts.

Gar said it very well. It's a gunline - unless your opponent is a dolt he doesn't really have a 'weak side' anyway. If you have the opportunity take first turn, muscle the middle, and bum rush him while shooting everything you can. That usually works out pretty good in my experience - I've beaten mech IG that way, I've not won yet going reserve vs. mech IG except in objective games (and only once).

As a long time played of the Imperial Guard I would give the following advice: (Please note this is exlusivly for Guard, though I guess it might apply to Tau as well)

On deployment: As GAR said, Go first!. If possible take first, deploy forward (of course, if possible forward and in cover) and pray he don't seize. If he goes first then I would still suggest to deploy far forward, through do make sure to hug cover as much as possible.

Reserving against Guard: For Dark Eldar this is a horrendous idea that will see you lose the game before it began. The reason is simple, any decent Guard played will have a Officer of the Fleet, reducing your reserves to a slow tickle. To be honest, even if the OotF is not present your reserves will still come in little by little. What this essensially means is that you let the IG player have a field day firing his entire army at half of yours. It will positively blow all your little paper planes away XD

How to tackle the Guard with DE in general: Be in his face at all times. That is the only hope you have. I would recommend taking on only one element of his army at a time as you say you usually do. Rather I would try to attack as many elements of his army as you can possible destroy at once. Playing my own Guard army the only think that really makes me stress/struggle is if my opponent attacks everything at once. Anyone who fail to take on the majority of my army in one go and course multiple threats will simply be methodically shot to pieces. And remember, multicharging is your best friend, do it as much as possible.
All of the above might have been rather obvious, but it is suprisingly many who seem to think they can outshoot my guardsmen. It has yet to happen =P

I hope your game goes well, please tell us how it went. I hope my advice also helped a little.

Yeah, randomly entering units are... nah.
And again, go first.

You need absolutely everything to start on board, then "swarm" them.

Here is video tutorial (do like "bad guys") provided by Hollywood.

And don't even try to outshoot armies to "stand & shoot".

Good advice. Thanks guys.

Go first if possible, don't reserve, swarm (nice tutorial!).

That's right Thor. There wont be a "weak side". I should have said "slightly less populated/ dangerous side" or "side that if i attack there will be less return fire and LOS from the middle and opposite side". My bad.

Thanks Zarath. Definitely have to attack many targets at once but are you saying i shouldn't still stick to one side of his line? Seems like suicide to attack the whole thing. He will get at least one round of shooting and i don't want his entire line to be able to LOS me.

Also when getting "in his face" should i charge infantry with my 5 man warrior squads or rapid fire? My trueborn will be too busy blastering tanks to charge.

Seems like i need to buy more wyches with haywires. If i do should i flat out first turn with them or move 12" and add to my first turn fire?

Wyches mounted in raider.

Take your pivot, move 12, disembark, then fleet and then assault.

1st turn assault, works almost every time unless you opponent has deployed back against the table edge.

Dark eldar are an attacking army, so being in the face of IG is you best bet.

Against marines and other uber assaulty units you need to be more selective in which units you assault, but a good rule of thumb is wyches can tarpit almost anything that does not negate their 4+ invul AND thier FNP when they get it.

So I would recommend avoiding assault termies or units with a large number of power weapons and monstrous creatures, these are easily dealt with by shooting. Yes they do have a 2+ or 3 plus save, but with a few venoms or concentrated DL weapon fire, these go down pretty fast.

Good wych units are shooty ones that can wreck your other units, like riflemen dreads, long fangs & devastators, tactical marines, dark reapers, IG heavy weapon teams, all armor if you have haywire grenades, etc...

More wyches is certainly something to consider against the Guard as they'll in general do more then Warriors.

But no IG veteran will allow you to preform a first turn charge unless he makes some horrendous mistake. As for refused flank vs frontal attack... Well it of course depends upon terrain and his army. Though even if he is mechvet he can easily manouver to bring every gun to bear. Of course if you can pull it of I would suggest attacking one side, but only on the condition this means the rest of his army actually CAN't shoot. This however I find highly unlikely, both because of the Guards range, abundance of heavy weapons and general disregard for templating our own soldiers (I do it all the time XD)

Most of the time, concentrating on one flank/element will be to the guard players advantage. As a matter of fact I often split my army in multiple firebases just to achive this. You see, if you are attacking only one part of his army he'll properly let you do that as this leaves the rest of his army unpressured and not in need of defending themselves. Thus they can precede to shoot you to oblivion. Next turn you'll nom another element and so on, but this war of attration heavily favour the guard player as he can afford to loose unit while you really can't.

Writing this actually made me realize how hard it must be to play my own DE against Guard XD (Have yet to try that) However the thing I as a Guard player fear is to get overwhelmed. If too much pressure is applied all along my line and I feel I need to defend all my units at once target priority (the single most important skill of an IG player) is harder to pull off correctly etc. So ye, I think a frontal/spread out along at least a long part of his line attack would function best.

When fighting IG, as Local_Ork so nicely illustrated, keeping your calm and not giving up but keep on kicking. After all, just 2 wyches will shred a whole squad most of the time. So ye... Pop the transports and tanks as fast as your blasters can manage, then procede to multi assault his squads, pray they hold the initial charge/you don't get shoot to bits and then repeat =P

what I would do is go first and concentrate your force in the middle, with maybe some scourges or reavers with AT weapons on the flank. He will most likely try and castle back into a corner. After that move everything forward and pop as many chimeras/russes you can, while your scourges/reavers go after those pesky medusas and hydras... once those hydras are down, the rest should be a cake. And remember to just try for a shake, if they cant shoot, they are useless...

Quote :

Take your pivot, move 12, disembark, then fleet and then assault.

1st turn assault, works almost every time unless you opponent has deployed back against the table edge.

Im not 100% sure but thats illegal, first: With pivot move you cant move any part of raider more than 12" or you will be unable to dissembark. Second: GW mentioned for assault board has extra 0.5" so no first turn assault from deplyment to deployment zone.
Might be wrong.

It's legal (first You turn ["peek Your nose" out of DZ], then fly 12", deploy within 2" [2"+base assault range], run, assault), however it require to roll pretty good for run or having enemy really close deployment edge and going in stright line.

I would NOT try first turn assault vs IG or Tau, just to make Your plan less failproof (what if wyches would land within 7" from heavy flamers on Chimera?). Also, this waiting may allow You to assault multiple units ergo block counter assault and movement with mass of enemy bodies. It also help to keep Your guys/girls busy instead of eating lasgun/pulse rifle beams in their faces.

At my club they wont let me get away with the alpha charge any more. They think its cheesy but that dosen't matter. Since i publicly abused a deathwing player (2 deathstars, 2 alpha charges = game over you lose) nobody is dumb enough to let me do that again, unless its a trap.

Ok Zarath you've convinced me. "I think a frontal/spread out along at least a long part of his line attack would function best."

Now... How do you guys deploy when going second vs IG?

Im thinking just spread out and hug cover wherever it can be found, only parking lot in a corner if it means much of his other flank cant see or range you.

Looks like ill have to taylor a list for IG. Don't like doing this but dont see another option. If i see IG in a tourney ill just accept im in for some pain but hey, we like that sort of thing!} Im thinking a wych cult, succubus with wyches in raider, wyches in venoms x5, blasterborn in raiders or venoms x3, 3 ravagers = 1750 pts give or take. Reavers with heat lances might work.

Advice on a 1750pt anti IG (or tau) wych cult would be appreciated.

How about Portal army? If You want to tailor it, go with Haemi with WWP, pretty big Beastmaster unit (I guess lone Raider/Venom may be obliterated even outside LoS).
Then pack, I don't know, Duke with 20 Warriors with 2x SC and Shredder, loads of Wyches and Ravagers?

Hmm... Never thought of using using a big beastmaster unit to hide my portal carrier in. It may survive if its big enough! Good idea Local Ork. Don't know if wyches will make it to his line tho.
Maybe i can distract him if i have enough talos with haywire b. and another big beast squad coming out of the portal. Ill need a second portal somewhere in there too.

Maybe i should be looking at a coven wwp list. Now that would be fun! Maybe not effective but fun!

Don't believe me bout a fun coven wwp list going second vs IG? Check this out...

Haemy 1 - wwp
Haemy 2-- wwp
Haemy 3 - liquifier, venom blade

5 Grotesques - liquifier

10 Wracks - 2 liquifiers, Acothyst
10 Wracks - 2 liquifiers, Acothyst
6 Wracks - Acothyst
4 Wracks - venom - ex splinter cannon, night shields

5 Beastmasters - 10 khymera, 6 razorwing flocks
5 Beastmasters - 10 khymera, 6 razorwing flocks

Talos - TL haywire, chainflails
Talos - TL haywire, chainflails
Talos - TL haywire, chainflails - 1750 pts

84 models = 150 wounds!!! Oh and 1 venom. Almost half of those wounds are toughness 4+ FNP!

Haemy 1 hides in one of the huge beastmaster units. First turn he splits from them, so they can run and drops his portal turn 1. Haemy 2 rides with the wracks in the venom. Venoms are small, easier to hide than a raider. He will drop his portal further forward. Everything else comes out of the portals. Heamy 3 runs with the grots of course.

Going second vs IG the portal carriers should survive. 1 by hiding in a 45 wound unit, 2 by hiding behind terrain (hopefully). After that i should be able to overwhelm him. I would also love to run this list vs tau, nids, orks...

Finding the models will be tough (I refuse to buy 20 individual khymera from GW, too expensive by far, might use chaos hounds.) but this should be a blast to play and nobody will expect it!

5 beastmaster horde surrounding a wwp carrier.... he.... hehe... mwahahaha... EPIC! I can just imagine the guard players face... blink blink blink. "I'm gonna need more cans of spam"

Painjunky wrote:

Finding the models will be tough (I refuse to buy 20 individual khymera from GW

You should get some of the old Warp Beast models - that's what I use.

Seekers of Slaanesh as Khymerae
Fiends of Slaanesh as Razorwing Flocks

I like the unearthly (Warpy?) look they have about them, and they make for a cohesive-looking unit, if a tad... icky.

Slaanesh units in a DE army?
Heresy!

You don't appreciate the irony of it?