Getting the Most out of Incubi

With the new Codex, there has been some occasionally-heated discussion on the Dark City forum regarding the utility of Incubi.  I don’t want to restart any of the debates regarding whether Incubi are better or worse than they used to be, or better or worse than Grotesques, or whether they’re not “optimal” or whatever.  That’s not the goal of this thread.  I mean no disrespect to those who have presented well-reasoned analyses or impassioned arguments in support of their respective position.  Reasonable minds can disagree about how good Incubi are, but the fact remains that there are numerous players who will continue to use Incubi either because (a) we really like the flavor text, (b) we really like the aesthetics of the model, (c) we have the models so we may as well use them, or (d) some combination of the above.  

My goal for this thread is to provide a single thread where solid tactical advice for using Incubi can be located quickly.  I will get the ball rolling with some tactical ideas and some examples supporting those tactics, and then when others have suggestions regarding the tactical application of the Incubi’s signature klaives I will edit this original post to expand and be a sort of “one stop shop” for advice on how to get the most out of Incubi.  

I do not claim that the ideas I present below are all my own original thinking; please understand that although I am not going to go out of my way to look up where I saw some of these ideas presented for the first time to give credit to the original poster, I have been influenced by the thinking of many other posters on this forum.  Some of these ideas I may well have come up with on my own and then read someone else’s post with the same idea and now I don’t remember if it was my idea originally or not; some ideas I will readily admit were not mine at all.  I’m not trying to plagiarize or take credit for anyone else’s ideas, I repeat that my goal here is to create a “one stop shop” for people to come and find in an easily-accessible post solid advice that will assist them in making tactical decisions they will face in a fast-paced game. (I.e., it’s probably best to read this post BEFORE the game starts, and let the ideas presented here percolate in your brain as you play the game.)

To start, I’ll address Incubi’s two main weaknesses that stand out for a dedicated assault unit:  Their lack of assault grenades and the fact that they are actually too “killy”.

I.  Overcoming the lack of assault grenades:

Yes, it sucks that Incubi now have no way to get assault grenades.  I feel your pain.  Now that we’ve got that out of the way, how do we overcome this glaring weakness?  (So the enemy can feel our pain!)

A.  Focus on units that are not hiding in difficult terrain:  You can do this by placing objectives in open terrain at the beginning of the game.  The more objectives you are placing in open terrain, the more likely you will have a viable target that is not in cover when you need your Incubi to make a brutal charge.

B.  Use vehicles with Chain Snares and Shock Prows to Tank Shock enemy units out of difficult terrain, then charge the enemy with the Incubi.

C.  Use the maneuverability of our fast skimmer dedicated transports to go over and around difficult terrain so that when the Incubi launch their assault they are attacking through an angle that is not through difficult terrain.  If an enemy squad is halfway in difficult terrain—charge the half that is out of terrain!

D.  Charge a unit that is already locked in close combat with another unit, or that is pinned (yes, I know we don’t have any Pinning weapons anymore in our Codex, but I believe some people play with CWE allies, and I believe CWE have Pinning weapons; also, causing a transport vehicle to explode forces the embarked passengers to take a Pinning test), or a unit that has already gone to ground.  If you can put enough wounds on a unit during the Shooting Phase that the opposing player elects to have that unit go to ground, you are doing something right, and now you have a perfect assault target for your Incubi.  (Massed disintegrator cannon fire, such as from a Ravager, is perfect for this!  Space Marine players will likely make their Honour Guard go to ground to try to preserve their expensive unit from all that AP2 dark light deliciousness.)

E.  Make the enemy come to you:  If you can get your Incubi to grab the Relic or get to an objective before your opponent, sometimes you can entice the opponent to assault you.  Then it doesn’t matter if you’re in terrain—you’re not the one charging, so you will always strike at normal Initiative.  Be careful about this, though, as if you make your Incubi too hard to get to, the enemy will just stand back and shoot them. (Camping on an objective in terrain will of course give you a cover save vs. the enemy shooting, too.)  This tactic, like several others in this thread, can be highly situational and will require careful judgment and careful execution.  Bonus hilarious side note:  This tactic will likely never work against Tau, who are more than happy to stand back and shoot you with loads of Ignores Cover firepower.  But this tactic can work really well against Marines, especially Chaos Space Marines. (Do people still play CSM in your meta?  I hardly ever see those guys anymore.  Sigh.)

F.  Think about waiting an extra turn before assaulting.  I know that many players want to charge as soon as possible, as early as Turn 2 if possible, but there may be reasons to hold off, such as wanting a better result from the Power from Pain chart or simply getting the Incubi into a better position for charging (so you can take advantage of items A through F above, for example).

EDIT: G. Cavalier, below, suggests allying with CWE and adding an Autarch with a Banshee Mask to help mitigate the penalty from difficult terrain.

II.  Incubi are too “killy”:

Assuming you are not striking at I1 due to charging through difficult terrain, Incubi are vicious in close combat.  Few other units can match their damage output.  This can actually be a problem; the Incubi may actually be too good at putting the hurt on the enemy.  (Heresy!)  The Incubi may wipe out their enemy on your turn, thus exposing the Incubi to shooting during your opponent’s turn.  Obviously, it is far better to stay in combat for a full game turn and win the combat during your opponent’s turn, if possible.  So how do we achieve this?

A.  Small units of Incubi:  I rarely ever take more than 4 Incubi in a single unit.  I find that more than 4 tends to be far too “killy” and so will just be shot off the board after they win one assault.  But 4 Incubi seems to be perfect.  I’ve used MSU Incubi like this a lot, and in my experience it’s very common to wipe out a 10-man Marine squad in exactly 2 combat rounds, which is perfect.  

B.  Think very carefully before you add a Succubus or tooled-up Archon to the list:  Both the Succubus and the Archon can actually make the combined unit too “killy” and will again expose them to shooting.  Ideally, you want the Incubi to go the whole game either in a transport or locked in combat so they can never be targeted (other than by targeting the transport to blow it up, or by using template weapons to use the No Escape! rule that was designed intentionally to screw over the DE).  Think carefully about whether or not to upgrade to a Klaivex.  This is another reason why keeping Incubi to units of 3 or 4 works well:  At the start of the game, you can make the decision whether or not your Archon/Succubus rides with the Incubi in their dedicated Venom, or joins a different unit, depending on your opponent’s army composition.  EDIT:  Per Azdrubael's suggestion below, a versatile addition to the Incubi squad may be a Haemonculi, to boost the Power from Pain chart and thus get Furious Charge one turn sooner--this increases the range of viable targets.  Keep in mind that since Haemonculi lack Fleet, you will want to try to assault from a close distance--1" from the enemy is often the perfect distance to assault!  (If you've ever failed a 3" charge even after Fleet, you know what I mean!)  If the Haemonculus is from the Coven supplement, the Incubi will also gain benefits from the supplemental Power from Pain chart, such as gaining Fearless earlier than the regular PFP chart, Fear, and late-game Zealot.  ADDITIONAL EDIT:  Per several commenters' suggestions below, if you are taking a Haemonculus from the Coven, you should also take the relic that grants Fleet.

C.  Think carefully about which units you want to assault:  For example, if you are playing against Orks, the perfect target may be the 30-man squad of Boyz rather than the Mega-Nobs.  This is one case where you would want to have a Succubus or Archon to help out.  I’ve had a 4 Incubi squad + Archon kill so many Orks that the Ork pile in move was insufficient to bring them into base to base contact with the Incubi, meaning that they couldn’t hit back at all!  (Side note:  If you are assaulting a huge unit, be wary of Overwatch—you may want to throw a smaller, inexpensive unit at the mob first to soak up Overwatch.)  This is perfect, as you will once again have a good chance to wipe out the mob during the opponent’s turn rather than your own.  Another common choice would be if you are playing Marines to prioritize assaulting their primarily-shooting squads over their uber-resilient assault units.  A unit of Devastators armed with Lascannons or Plasma Cannons is a perfect target—you will more than make your points back even if you lose all 4 Incubi (which you won’t!).  On the other hand, assaulting Terminators armed with TH/SS is not a good idea:  You likely won’t force enough wounds past the 3++ Invulnerable save to wipe the unit, and when they hit back they’ll be hitting hard—S8 AP2 (typically) meaning the Incubi won’t get their 3+ Armor Save, one or their big strengths, and won’t get Feel No Pain either due to Instant Death.  Assaulting a regular Marine squad will usually mean you take few if any casualties, charging Assault Terminators will likely result in all of your Incubi being “squish like grape” (said in the voice of Mr. Miyagi).

D.   Remember to always focus on the mission.  Maybe you will have to make the hard choice and charge the Assault Terminators with TH/SS because they are holding the Relic or parked on the objective you need to grab that turn.  (Hopefully by then the Incubi have Fearless from Power from Pain, so that if even one Incubus survives the Thunder Hammer strikes the unit will be contesting the objective!)


It should be obvious that none of these points of advice are rigid, inflexible rules.  This is not a decision tree.  Every game will involve a host of variables that a player will have to think about and adapt to.  But hopefully the ideas presented here will help players use their Incubi to their greatest advantage.  As I said before, I will happily edit this post to include other suggestions/ideas, so please comment freely and often!

v/r

--Vorenus

Vorenus wrote:

B.  Use vehicles with Chain Snares and Shock Prows to Tank Shock enemy units out of difficult terrain, then charge the enemy with the Incubi.

Good stuff. Something to keep in mind:

• I don't think that I don't think you can tank shock if a unit disembarks from it.
  
• It's probably dangerous to tank shock with a loaded transport too as Death or Glory auto-hits.
  
• You can still force models out of cover even if they don't fall back via Crunch rules.
  

I can see how what I wrote could have been more clear. Allow me to attempt a clarification: Unless you only have one vehicle in your list, you can tank shock with a different vehicle than the one the Incubi were in. A Raider with Warriors is the perfect companion for Incubi in a Venom.

Pairing Des Rav with an Incubi unit is a solid advice. It gives your army enough AP2 you can hit both units at the same target, forcing decisions about going to ground.

Another use i see for them is for assault based army. They can be a mop-up crew going from ongoing close combat to another. But that requires assault based army, which is a quest in itself.

I also think that Klaivex is a must, too much value for his points not to take him.

Also, since Archon cant give them too much now, he or Succubus is not the best company for them.
Haemunculi on the other hand is, preferably from the coven book, its really broaden their use. First of all, they will get early Furious Charge - meaning they will have Mass S5 power weapons. At this point incubi can poke bikers and light vehicles.

They will also get early fearless and fear, fear with -1 ld will help with mobs of light infantry.

Lately Zealot and Rage will sorta make them more hammer unit.

All in all i see this unit like 5 man with Klaivex, haemunculi with sump and scissorhands. In Raider.

I've been enjoying 4 incubi including a klaivex, with a succubus with archite glaive and armour of misery. Generally has the capacity to 1-shot most squads, or 2-shot marines. For example:
Above unit charges 10 tactical marines. Succubus has 5 S4 attacks 2-handed, kills ~2 marines. The incubi/klaivex will have 13+d3, so for the sake of argument 15. 10 hits, another 5 dead. Remaining 3 marines in all probability will bounce off. Win combat by 7, but marines only have a 1/36 chance of getting away (rolling a 6 on their initiative test, and your succubus rolls a 1). I can see the advantage to pairing them with a haemy instead though.

Thanks for the feedback/comments/suggestions. I'm going to edit the OP to include the suggestion of attaching a Haemonculus to the Incubi squad, per Azdrubael's suggestion. I would have already followed through on my pledge to edit the "mini-essay" but I have been away from my computer for about 3 days, and I didn't want to monkey around with the thread using just my smart phone. I do have a question for you though, Azdrubael: Since Haemonculi lack Fleet, do you think this causes a significant obstacle to the maximum effectiveness of an Incubi squad? Or do you view it more as a minor obstacle? (After all, Fleet is not as important if you make it a practice to launch your assaults from only 1" away from the enemy through open terrain.)

And just to clarify my earlier position: I'm not saying that you should NEVER take a Klaivex, or that you should NEVER attach an Archon or Succubus, just that you should think about it carefully. As I said, you don't want the Incubi to wipe out their enemy in the first turn of combat, thus exposing them to enemy shooting. But I agree that if you choose the correct enemy to assault, the Klaivex is golden. Probably the only time you really, really don't want a Klaivex is if you're assaulting a 5-man Space Marine combat squad, because you are almost guaranteed to overkill them--but 4 Incubi without a Klaivex have a really good chance of overkilling them anyway, right? (12 attacks on the charge, 8 hits on average, 4 dead SMs on average--it only takes 1 more "above average" to wipe the squad, which is well within the realm of statistical variance!) Depending on how you have set up, how the terrain is laid out, etc., you may be able to mitigate a situation like that anyway with careful placement of your Klaivex: If you are concerned that the Klaivex will tip the scales into the "overkill" category, you may be able to place the Klaivex during the Movement phase in such a way that he won't be able to make combat, thus not overkilling the enemy. For example, if you start with your closest Incubi about 7-8" from the assault target (a relatively safe charge range with Fleet, although obviously even with Fleet sometimes you will fail a 7" charge; to say nothing of the shame of failing a 3" charge even after Fleet--dice happen!), and string your Incubi squad out in a line away from the enemy so that the Klaivex is last in line and is 18" from the target unit (2" cohesion gap between each Incubi plus the 1" base diameter can string them out in a line 11" long). This way even if you roll a 12" on the charge range your Klaivex should end up without being able to assault even after his pile in move. But this is such a finicky plan that I can't really endorse it. Although a creative tactic, I think it relies on too many moving parts to line up just right. Fail that 7" charge and you're worse off than simply overkilling the target unit. Still fun to think about, though!

Overall, I agree that probably nine times out of ten you want to take the Klaivex upgrade. However, I think with the new rules the Demi-klaives upgrade is never worth the points. What do you guys think?

Thanks again for the comments/suggestions--please keep them coming and I'll continue to edit the OP to incorporate the collective tactical cunning of the Dark City's twisted, bloodthirsty minds!

I think the Klaivex is wanted more than 9 times out of 10, to be completely frank. For what you pay, you get a guaranteed extra attack, likely 1+D3 extra as Incubi aren't ofter going to outnumber anything, an occasionally useful bump to WS and I, and the ability to issue/accept challenges (doubly useful if you have an HQ you don't want to risk). Honestly the only time I won't take a klaivex is when I'm desperately trying to cut points and can't find anywhere to get the last 10.

Panic_Puppet: I think I agree with you. That said, in the OP I didn't say, "NEVER take a Klaivex," I just advised that players think about it before doing so. In a "take all comers" list you are almost certainly correct that the Klaivex is a "must include" upgrade. In a friendly game where you get together, decide armies, and then build lists--which is a pretty common phenomenon, I think, although that's not how I usually play. I usually make army lists during the week and then bring those lists with me to the game store for my weekly Saturday blood rituals (so I can't be accused of "list tailoring") but I do know that a lot of people only make their list after they know what army their opponent is facing, for casual/"friendly" games, so it's a consideration. I'm not trying to seem contrarian here, just hoping to emphasize/clarify that I'm not saying to "NEVER take a Klaivex," just to think about the choice.

Vorenus wrote:

Overall, I agree that probably nine times out of ten you want to take the Klaivex upgrade.  However, I think with the new rules the Demi-klaives upgrade is never worth the points.  What do you guys think?

The demi-klaive is a pretty badly designed weapon that the design team adjusted without bothering to consider what it did.
Functionally - there are exceedingly few times where the +1A will matter more than the +1S. So functionally you're paying a lot of points for an attack option you'll almost never use.

It is better to use the +1A option only if;

1. Your base strength of 3 is already wounding on a 2+ (so, with Furious charge we're talking models with a T of 1-2...yeah)

2. With the boosted strength you're only wounding on a 6+ anyway and the lesser strength would do the same. (basically models with a T of 6-7)

That's about it, also with an awareness of the AP situation as part of it.
Neither of those situations will happen often because 1 basically barely exists and 2 is something you would want to avoid with your Incubi anyway. Whoop-de-doo.

So, yeah, I'd avoid that upgrade like the plague - you are paying for the privilege to get a less effective weapon.

Oh wow, I hadn't spotted that change to Demiklaives in the new dex - they're rubbish now!

@Vorenus
Nice work on the analysis of Incubi! If I ever get round to updating my DE unit guide, I'll probably guide, I'll probably just link this thread

I might consider Demi-klaives if the +1 attack bonus was in addition to the normal +1 for having two CCWs, but as is, nah. And why did the +2 bonus to Strength get nerfed? Klaivexes used to be able to threaten AV12 after Furious Charge, but yhose days are now gone.

Vorenus wrote:

I might consider Demi-klaives if the +1 attack bonus was in addition to the normal +1 for having two CCWs

I have to admit - I put this into the same universe where the Hellglaive lost its attack bonus.
I think it was a rush codex job done by people who didn't fully grasp the rules.

It sounds kind of sad to say - but it does explain a lot of those sort of odd nerfs.

Then again, someone with a degree in math probably wouldn't be writing codices for GW, sadly

I am pretty sure this level of math doesn't require a degree

Someone with a degree in using spreadsheets*

once you get into effectiveness of FnP (For example, the talos has 5.8-ish effective wounds with a spirit probe Cronos, NOT 6!) or things like "reroll highest" etc. being able to do normal distributions and some basic integration is quite useful

I think with Incubi (or wyches for that matter). If you want to use them hell or high water, then put them in a raider, accompanied by a Haemi from the coven list in a Raider /w webway portal.

They aren't vulnerable on turn 1 (or get stuck in your back field). They deploy right next to what you want them to strike, even if there vehicle blows up before they can assault the turn after they come down. This is important, because you can put them right next to any units not in cover.

The unit really doesn't need a Archon in my opinion. They are plenty killy as is. With a Coven Haemi, they get better Feel no Pain (well atleast on turn 2 they will), they gain Fearless and fear from the Haemi (along with -1 Ld bubble for enemies), and if he lives long enough, eventually gives them Zealot. (If one model in a unit has Fear, Fearless or Zealot all models in unit do, additionally they will still get there normal chart, so Furious Charge on Turn 3 assault).

I. Overcoming the lack of assault grenades:

We can add assault grenades to the unit, right?

The following DE and battle brothers have plasma grenades Archon, Succubus, Lelith, an Autarch, Prince Yriel, and Baharroth.

Dark Lance wrote:

I.  Overcoming the lack of assault grenades:

We can add assault grenades to the unit, right?

The following DE and battle brothers have plasma grenades Archon, Succubus, Lelith, an Autarch, Prince Yriel, and Baharroth.    

A model with grenades gains their benefit - but that benefit does not translate to the rest of the unit.

So, for example, if a Succubus is in a unit of Incubi assaulting through cover - she would strike at her regular initiative and they would swing at initiative step 1. make sense?

Can I clarify in order to better be up to speed on this discussion: You still have to try and contact as many models as possible, right? So trying to manuevre into a position from which you won't have to go through terrain is going to be incredibly tricky, don't you think?

Yeah, it means thinking a turn or two ahead about how assault is going to look, which is how WWP has to be played anyway, right? Perhaps assaulting the target with something cheap/expendable (wyches), to draw it out of cover and then laying the Incubi into it afterward. Good call on the Klaivex further up the thread. I had to go back and read his rules again. That is a lot of power to give a sergeant level upgrade! He wrecks face!

Nice tips! I wanna add just one thing in favour of Coven Haemonulus. He can take a 10points relic which get him the Fleet special rule.

That means no drawback to put him with Incubi

Also, I believe you can use the Fleet to re-roll dice in an attempt to get LESS distance, right?

Timatron wrote:

Also, I believe you can use the Fleet to re-roll dice in an attempt to get LESS distance, right?

Yep

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. Keep them coming, I appreciate them! I will update/edit the OP to add the details about taking a Haemonculus from the Coven supplement.

Timatron: Yes, it can be tricky to assault a unit that is in terrain without going through terrain. But it's not impossible. As with many things in this game, "it depends" (classic law school 101 answer). There are a lot of variables. One thing that I do that helps is to thoroughly discuss the different types of terrain on the table with my opponent before deployment. I feel this is really important now that "area terrain" no longer exists (although many players still seem to be stuck in a 6th ed. mindset when it comes to this topic). I have these discussions not to "rules lawyer" my opponent, but to clarify any issues so that there won't be any confrontations or arguments during the game when I try to do something that they may think is unorthodox.

On a somewhat related note: I had the opportunity to play in a single-elimination tournament this past Saturday at the local GW store. I ran a 1500-point pure DE list (no allies, and I didn't use the Coven supplement rules, just the basic codex rules). This was my first single-elimination tournament, so it was different than I expected/anticipated, but I won my first three games so am going to the semi-finals (which will be held on the 22nd due to time constraints). In all three of my games, my small unit of Incubi with a Klaivex and an attached Achon did really, really well. Over the three games, they slaughtered hundreds of points of enemy models and only lost a single Incubus (and he died from shooting, not from wounds in assault). I hope to write a more detailed battle report (with complete army list) and post it soon, if time permits. But I remain convinced that Incubi are still awesome--the model, the flavor text, and the incredible amount of carnage they can cause are all excellent. That's why I started this thread in the first place: I am hoping to have a single thread that can give players a convenient place to find a lot of tactical ideas/suggestions for getting the most out of their Incubi.

Thanks again for your comments, and keep them coming!

Vorenus wrote:

I feel this is really important now that "area terrain" no longer exists (although many players still seem to be stuck in a 6th ed. mindset when it comes to this topic).

Area terrain does still exist though - as long as you're using terrain datasheets. Which, functionally, you're kind of supposed to do.