Lelith Hesperax in the new codex?

Hi,

Has anyone tried her out? I´m planning to make a 1500p list with her as a WL (altough, stupid a** WL Trait...again GW...) against the next Marines i´ll be facing, just to get a feel, how she´s managing in the field of combat...

I've not used her yet (that sounds dirty) but I'm hoping to before too long (ok, getting dirtier).

I think against the majority of warlords I face she'd be pretty good, don't get many that push the boundaries particularly at my club. I'm interested in using her (there I go again) as I'm wanting to attend Blog Wars next year, which requires a special character. I don't want Drazhar and I'm stuck trying to decide between Lelith and Urien.

Seems like she's relatively useful in a challenge, though still fragile enough that you'd need to pick your fights carefully. I'd probably avoid anything that looks like a power fist or thunder hammer, especially if the bearer looks like they're carrying a storm shield. Seems like she's meant to be a challenge monkey that's actually best used for killing chaff...

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Seems like she's meant to be a challenge monkey that's actually best used for killing chaff...

She's actually a pretty solid challenge monkey though as long as she avoids things that can ID her. Now, I'll agree that actually takes out a large pile of options, but she remains a pretty solid option against a lot of things. Anything with 1 wound that she's faster than, even if they can ID her, is pretty safe. So most squad upgrade characters are meat for her, and as long as she avoids Orks with Klaws/Saws and Captain/CMs with hammers it's a pretty good day to be Lelith in a challenge.

she took out typhus in my last 2k game so she cant be all bad. Mind you it took a couple rounds because even with rerolls its still a pain to wound.

So she still seems the same as always? Pick your fight properly? I wasn´t going to set her loose on Mephiston, or something like that ...maybe a sargeant or max. a Librarian/Rune Priest, just have to nullify the Force...

if only she used poison, sigh.

In general. You can get a succubus that is almost as good for a fraction of the cost.

But I will still use her at some point.

The one nice thing with her is that her exceptionally high ws means most everyone else needs 6 to
hit her.

Silverglade wrote:

In general. You can get a succubus that is almost as good for a fraction of the cost.

I am not thinking this is correct.

Lilith's loss of attacks in the new book is a huge hit. Getting rampage doesn't compare to the number of extra attacks she'd get in the previous codex. This is a huge issue due to only being S3 - still having 6 attacks base (7 on the charge) and power from pain, she's nothing to sneeze at.

Her rerolling only occurring in a challenge is a blessing and a curse. It's great to offset her S3 as well as makes it very useful due to how wounds overflow into/from challenges in 7th edition. However, this also means that the best way to deal with her is to decline her challenge or be unable to be challenged as the start of the fight subphase. By losing the reroll, her number of attacks lose a lot of their punch.

Lastly - I wouldn't take her as my warlord. The difference between WS9 and WS10 is moot in most cases. This is where a Succubus is useful since she can do quite well in her own right at 2/3rds the cost (after upgrades).

I'm not sure the complaint about her numbers holds water.

1. I think we all agree she is, at least, decent in a challenge.
2. If their trick is to deny the challenge...well, that takes one of them out of the fight and lets Lelith beat up on single wound mooks - something she is also pretty darn good at.
3. I do think Rampage is a decent replacement for her old attack boosts. The old attack boost gave her about 5 bonus attacks versus mooks, and less as anything more dangerous showed up and that was with 4 base attacks. (so she was 6 on the charge) So her range went from 8-11 or so to 8-10. Yeah, it's a shift, but not a major one. And she's also now far more reliable if any enemy character is actually any good at all whereas before she would get weaker the tougher her opponent was. That's a big deal in my opinion.

But now my curiosity is piqued here. Let's consider;

Succubus w. Glaive 95 points (I know a lot of people give her the armor, but I think that's a waste)
Archon w. Aggie, Shadowfield, Soul Trap 135 points
Lelith 150 points.


So the Succubus will have 5 attacks on the charge at Str 4 AP 2
Archon will have 6 attacks with a poison 4+ weapon at AP 3
Lelith will have 9 attacks at Str 5 with AP lulz (average Rampage roll of 2 - though you can also argue 1.5 as the average and actually be a bit more accurate, oh maths)

vs. GEQ
Succubus - 2.22 dead Guardsmen
Archon - 2 dead Guardsmen
Lelith - 3 dead Guardsmen (in a challenge - 6 wounds inflicted, barring force fields or something)

vs. MEQ
Succubus - 1.66 dead MEQ
Archon - 2 dead MEQ
Lelith - 2 dead MEQ (in a challenge - 4.43 wound inflicted barring Iron Halos or something)

vs. TEQ
Succubus - 1.1 dead TEQ (.55 if they have thundersheilds)
Archon - .33 dead TEQ
Lelith - 1.33 dead TEQ (.66 if they have thundersheilds) - In a challenge those numbers shift to 2.95 wounds vs. TEQ and 1.47 vs. stormsheild)


So, across the board Lelith is the better killer of opponents and the *markedly* better killer if the opponent gets into a challenge with her.

Now, the Succubus probably comes up a reasonable second place. This is paired with costing about 2/3rds what Lelith does while also only having a 4++ vs. Lelith's 4++/3++. Also, for those who like the armor that again changes the value as then it's only a 40 point difference, albeit the saves are a bit closer and you have the fear bubble, but you're still an inferior killing machine.

The Archon is better at killing MEQ than the Succubus, though he suffers vs. TEQ and GEQ, and is really weak vs. TEQ - which is an expected baseline for assault HQs I would say. His shine comes from the Shadowfield and his ability to fill multiple roles with a blaster and WWP option.


What I'm seeing here is that if you're running your HQ in a Raider with, say, Grots, that Lelith and the Succubus are almost always the better option than the Archon unless your goal is to use him to tank wounds for whatever unit he is in. Meh. That is kind of a revelation for me because I've been trying to make the assault Archon work and this really does speak to how shoddy he is nowadays for that purpose.

The Archon is mostly there to be a WWP access, and also to serve the role of a shooty or support warlord.

For straight up killing Lelith is the best, and value wise still pretty darn competitive with the Succubus. Indeed, if you're taking the Succubus with the armor and doing the armor more for the defensive buff than playing other shenanigans, then Lelith is a pretty solid upgrade option there. Lelith is also, clearly, our best challenge bully unit, as she is basically worth two or more Succubi whenever she is in a challenge.

There is also some chance for the Succubus to get a beneficial drug effect as well as the Warlord trait question to consider. It is also worth noting that anything WS 4 or less hits Lelith on a 5+ though the Succubus can also get that benefit with drugs.

For affordability the naked Succubus w. Glaive is definitely the standout assault option.

I'd say in general, if you're taking the armour on the Succubus, you don't do it for the save, you do it for the -2Ld bubble, to me it's a no brainer because if you win the combat you've automatically got a -3 to your opponent's break test (-4 if you take grotesques as part of a grotesquerie).

You'd have to be crackers not to have the succubus accompanying something anyway, most sensibly grotesques, in which case the whole unit becomes a far more dangerous proposition, and she gets to pass wounds off onto her meatshields (and let's face it, grotesques even look like meatshields!)

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I'd say in general, if you're taking the armour on the Succubus, you don't do it for the save, you do it for the -2Ld bubble, to me it's a no brainer because if you win the combat you've automatically got a -3 to your opponent's break test (-4 if you take grotesques as part of a grotesquerie).

It does do that, though the list of units it affects is not what one would hope (and most of those we tend to trump anyway). But I will agree that is a tactic that some people do seem to love.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

You'd have to be crackers not to have the succubus accompanying something anyway, most sensibly grotesques, in which case the whole unit becomes a far more dangerous proposition, and she gets to pass wounds off onto her meatshields (and let's face it, grotesques even look like meatshields!)

Clearly, pretty much any assault HQ is almost assuredly teamed up with Grots. That doesn't make the saves outside of combat nor the better save in combat any less of a consideration.

The thing to keep in mind with the armor is that the negative leadership isn't restricted. Yes there are fearless and stubborn units but it still affects all others when it comes to combat results. It is not as restricted as the soul fright weapons.

It's not - but ATSKNF units still, functionally, sort of don't care if you're using it to help sweep combats. So that rules them out as well.

To my mind that mostly leaves behind things we don't auto-sweep (Eldar) and things we'd tend to roflstomp in assault anyway. I think the best benefit is against Daemons in assault, as it does ruin their day pretty handily - but then I don't really sweat daemons much in any case since we have poison shooting for the big ones and weight of fire for invulns anyway. So who does it really help us against? Tau? Certain IG or Ork units? Certain CSM units? And Necrons. I guess the Necron thing is kind of cool, as sometimes they can be sturdy enough to stand there - but usually against them it's really just a question of whether or not I can handle the croissants or not.

I agree the tactic is a thing - I just don't see it as particularly worth the points.

Quote :

The one nice thing with her is that her exceptionally high ws means most everyone else needs 6 to
hit her.

Nope, ws5 hit her at 4s and below on 5s. There is no 6 in the "to hit" chart.

Thor665 wrote:

Lelith will have 9 attacks at Str 5 with AP lulz (average Rampage roll of 2 - though you can also argue 1.5 as the average and actually be a bit more accurate, oh maths)

How does she get S5?

On a larger game this coming Friday, i opted to go with the Succubus. I´m trying Dark Eldar as Eldar allies, with out the cheez-e-nezz...

I got

HQ
Succubus (Armor of Misery, AG, Blast pistol, Haywire)

ELITE
Wracks (Ossefactor)
Venom (Dual Cannons)

TROOP
Wyches x 7
Hekatrix (Haywire)
Succubus and another Farseer here
Raider (Dark Lance, Night Shields)

FAST
Reavers x 9 (3xBlaster+Caltrops)
another Farseer on bike here

HEAVY
Talos x 2 (tl Heat Lance + Ichor Injector)

Let´s see how she´ll play out. I´m trying to get Fortune and Doom from the Eldar powers on her Farseer...

- Lost Vyper

Lost Vyper wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Lelith will have 9 attacks at Str 5 with AP lulz (average Rampage roll of 2 - though you can also argue 1.5 as the average and actually be a bit more accurate, oh maths)

How does she get S5?

The numbers generated suggest this was a typo, and he meant S3. A Succubus can get to S6 with +1S from drugs and furious charge, but as Lelith don't take drugs she's limited to max strength 4

Thor665 wrote:

Lelith will have 9 attacks at Str 5 with AP lulz (average Rampage roll of 2 - though you can also argue 1.5 as the average and actually be a bit more accurate, oh maths)

One note. Math still averages to a 2 not 1.5 on a d3. <1 is never possibl. 1.5 would assume you're rolling between 0-3 rather than 1-3. Not sure if your calculations were assuming 1.5 or 2.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Lelith will have 9 attacks at Str 5 with AP lulz (average Rampage roll of 2 - though you can also argue 1.5 as the average and actually be a bit more accurate, oh maths)

One note. Math still averages to a 2 not 1.5 on a d3. <1 is never possibl. 1.5 would assume you're rolling between 0-3 rather than 1-3.   Not sure if your calculations were assuming 1.5 or 2.  

I thought this, but then I also figured actually the rampage roll can be a 0, if her unit isn't outnumbered.

Of course, if you assume that 50% of the time she'll be outnumbered and 50% of the time she wont, then the average of her rampage attacks would be the average of 0 and 2 (as you say, the average of when she does get rampage) so the additional attacks only average out at 1, but I think that's taking it a bit far really.

Lost Vyper wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Lelith will have 9 attacks at Str 5 with AP lulz (average Rampage roll of 2 - though you can also argue 1.5 as the average and actually be a bit more accurate, oh maths)

How does she get S5?

As noted - a typo. I am numerically dyslexic actually, so 3s and 5s are tricky for my brain pan sometimes.

I am pretty confident on all my math as presented though