Superheavies and us

So I've been gone for awhile... Started a new job as a truck driver and my hobbying has suffered a bit. Anyway I was in a pretty heated argument the other week about weather or not dark eldar need a superheavy/titan. I said no because that it's completely backwards to how the army works. He disagreed and said that having a huge "distraction carnifex" that's would absorb all the shots thrown its way would be super benificial. Anyway what do you guys think

Well we have access to the revenant titan anyway. But my own personal view is that the category is misleading - there's no reason why the Dark Eldar wouldn't have constructs of this sort of size, they just wouldn't be lumbering and slow (unless for the coven).

I could see a heavily armed aircraft being more our style - still comparatively fragile for what it is, but packing a ridiculous amount of damage dealing capability (heavy 3 void lances maybe?), though there's so much scope for a gargantuan pain engine on the coven side of things I think that'd be where they'd go first.

I think a Super-Heavy would fit in very well.
Lets not forget that the main point of a Dark Eldar attack is to breach defences and take prisoners. I can easily see craft desinged as seige machines to punch through walls, etc - but moreso once the defences down, are you really going to limit yourself to whatever you can fit in your Raiders including the Warriors who survived? No, you'd need a decent sized, one might say super-heavy, support vehicle to store all the prisoners/loot.

I think something along the lines of the Eldar Lynx would be perfect for DE, its rocking a 2 shot d-weapon, its a fast skimmer that can also go into flyer-mode. I'm sure the Dark Eldar have similar craft

I love the idea of something loosely styled like a necron monolith but with a captured star in the middle...

but obviously smooth and spikey with chains

I don't think Dark Eldar would create a big construct so they can crack heavy defenses for a more difficult raid, because why should they go to a heavily protected palce, anyway? They can nit pick sweet and vulnerable spots all across the galaxy, why should they choose to engage in a heavily armed conflict?

I cannot really exclude this possibility, however I don't think DEs would spent an enormous amount of resources just so they have this big siege machine of doom which doesn't bring them much new.

Don't forget, they are not interesting in conquering planets or fighting large scale wars unless they have no other option.

HOWEVER, what I could imagine is many Kabals having access to apocalyptic pre-fall technology like the Kabal of the Dying Sun has (sun killing machines, anyone?). So yeah, I think its legit to assume that there are quite a few secret places in Commorragh and several of its subreals, where walkers and other titanic machines of doom that are hidden and owned by a few selected Kabals.

The reason for them not appearing could be simply that they are seen as too dangerous, even for Dark Eldar standards, as only vague knowledge is left about how to operate these machines. And even if you know how to operate these machines, what drawback will they have, are you really in control and know what you are doing or are you just screwing around and try to do stuff with it by performing only basic actions, so you think it is still safe?
It might just as well blow up and whipe out everything on the table lol.

But that wouldn't mean that an Archon couldn't theoretically bring such a nice toy to perform a raid an a heavily armed solar system, right? Only that the next issue I have with this is... how powerful those thing truely are. If it can pulverize whole cities with little effort, I think their purpose is better suited to induce terror and weaken moral (what's left to raid in an empty void?). So using it wouldn't be worth it, as you then have whole of Commorragh as enemies once it gets known that you possess such a device. So you need to hide it and make use of use it secretly.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

I don't think Dark Eldar would create a big construct so they can crack heavy defenses for a more difficult raid, because why should they go to a heavily protected palce, anyway? They can nit pick sweet and vulnerable spots all across the galaxy, why should they choose to engage in a heavily armed conflict?

Because silly men behind massive walls can be too confident in their walls, and such a place is the last place you would expect so daring a raid.

I think a giant grotesque/flesh beast would fit the fluff really well.

there is even one in the background of an artwork in the coven supplement battling a big tau suit (page 9, enhanced ibooks edition):



Or the huge pain engine here (page 42):



Imagine such a knight sized beast fresh from your friendly haemonculus laboratory

In my opinion the first image is a normal Grotesque and the second a Talos/Chronos.
I don't think that Dark Eldar would build a super heavy because of the internal power balance in Commoragh, as mentioned before.
I would like to see a huge Heamy pile of flesh. Constructed by knitting together a lot of pain engines and Grotesques and Wracks. It would have all those different weapons included from each part and some fire splitting special rule.

"The warrior kabals strike swiftly and without warning from portals opened within the labyrinth dimension of the webway, only to disappear like ghosts when the enemy resistance becomes too severe."

In my opinion no, good lord no. We're pirates, raiders and slavers. Heavy guns and armour always cost speed and maneuverability, two things that are essential to a successful raid. If a kabal needs to break defenses too great for their own might, then manipulation of one of the lesser races into softening the target is a far more prudent method. Besides, even if a kabal possessed a weapon like that, it is doubtful they would choose to reveal that they do in a real-space raid. It would certainly draw a lot of unwanted attention from other archons or possibly Vect and it's always good to have an ace up you're sleeve.

The only possible exception would be the covens. However, whilst I'm sure the Haemonculi are perfectly capable to creating something monstrous enough, I have to agree with The Strange Dark One this would be a phenomenal sink of a covens resources, resources which would be lost upon the creature's demise. The whole point of our raids is to keep a steady flow of bodies and souls into the dark city and it would have to be a big haul indeed to still have a net gain for the coven.

In terms of table-top I think it would ruin the feel of our army, if a super-heavy is on the field the Dark Eldar should be looting the city in the distance or already left for Commoragh with all the goodies we've nicked.

TL;DR No, why would an Archon bother?

We are quicksilver sneaky little pirates. Not some stupid giant that smashes through everything.
Ofcourse we have the coven but i think the grots and taloi are big and bulky enough for us. If there would be a bigger version of them, OK.

I am neutral on whether we should have a super heavy or not.

I will say that if we get one... I want a giant monster that is mounted by a team of Beastmasters. A creature so big and vicious it takes 6 or more wyches to barely control it!

Spoiler:

There's always the Children of Bone and their "unusually large" grotesques.

Let us not forget an Archon's propensity for showmanship and one-upsmanship. if Surasis can glue two Raiders together and call it a Tantalus. Then I shall glue TWO Tantaluses together, and call it some other Greek mythological torturer, umm... Mespyrian! No wait, that sounds like a medication. As an Archon, you want big toys regardless. And why not? If my neighbor Archon Jones has a Revenant Titan, well I must have one too, for status (and protection). And just because I own this super sized fortress destroying lovely, doesn't mean I have to throw it at a fortress. After all, I take my Ravagers to steal helpless, backwater, filthy monkeighs too.

I've always thought we should get more formations as opposed to super heavies, much like our titan hunter formation in apocalypse. That said some sort of covenant creature would be interesting kinda like the skaven monster (can't remember what it's called). So maybe a gargantuan monstrous creature would be more suitable than a super heavy.

Wraithknight fit into most of our lists effortlesely.

Dont even need super heavy.

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Let us not forget an Archon's propensity for showmanship and one-upsmanship. if Surasis can glue two Raiders together and call it a Tantalus. Then I shall glue TWO Tantaluses together, and call it some other Greek mythological torturer, umm... Mespyrian! No wait, that sounds like a medication. As an Archon, you want big toys regardless. And why not? If my neighbor Archon Jones has a Revenant Titan, well I must have one too, for status (and protection). And just because I own this super sized fortress destroying lovely, doesn't mean I have to throw it at a fortress. After all, I take my Ravagers to steal helpless, backwater, filthy monkeighs too.

I imagine that could be seen as a sign of weakness. Archons need to constantly proofe how untouchable they are and performing raids while being on board on a heavy craft is comparatively save (for DE standards).

Does the Tantalus even appear in fluff?

The Strange Dark One wrote:

I imagine that could be seen as a sign of weakness. Archons need to constantly proofe how untouchable they are and performing raids while being on board on a heavy craft is comparatively save (for DE standards).

Does the Tantalus even appear in fluff?

A pirate fleet might be full of sloops, but you'll find the captain riding a frigate. It's not because it's tougher, it's because it can carry more guns and loot. I'm just saying a super heavy is not outside the scope of a DE army. Take a look at the Queen Anne's Revenge. It raided plenty.

Humnhapymeal wrote:

Anyway what do you guys think

I figure DE could use a super heavy PIRATE SHIP. Something that can hold 20+ warriors and has a webway portal mounted in it to bring out more warriors. Basically the Forgeworld Tantalus.

Aside from that, Dark Eldar already make use of slow, tough units like the talos. Dark Eldar also have the resources to have space fleets with kilometer+ long battleships, so something like "a godzilla Talos" or "Dark Eldar Titan" is not outside of their resources.

Seriously if the Talos never existed in 3e and was added in this edition you'd probably have people complain "We're suppose to be lighting fast raiders why are we getting this giant smashy slow guy!?"

But if given a choice the super-heavy pirate ship is what I'd go for. It can even have a Titan-sized Bladevane attack for plowing through enemy superheavies then portaling in troops into the heart of your foe's army.

HokutoAndy wrote:

It can even have a Titan-sized Bladevane attack for plowing through enemy superheavies then portaling in troops into the heart of your foe's army.

Awesome! D3 ram results perhaps...

I'm sort of on both sides of the fence.

Yes, DE undoubtedly could and would build and use big stuff.
No, I don't want GW or Forgeworld to produce any of them, because it would remove another of the things that gives us a distinctive feel on the tabletop.

If you're that keen, you can always ally with CWE and use their toys.

Plastikente wrote:

If you're that keen, you can always ally with CWE and use their toys.

That's precisely why I DO want some suitable superheavy for us. I'm sick of being treated as a second class 40k army. When Escalation came out, despite being completely opposed to the whole concept, I objected to the fact that we were just told to use the Revenant. We're the only 7e codex with no LoW. Forgeworld have no plans for any DE in the foreseeable future. We have no (non-Apoc) formations or dataslates outside of our codex. When the codex came out we got nothing new, just resculpts of existing models (whilst taking away units for which models were needed) and a flyer that has (allegedly) been completed for ages and simply not released.

It just feels like GW can't be bothered with us

I take your point on all that. I was really disappointed with the lack of new stuff too. But I don't think that superheavies are the answer. Once they're in the book, a lot of people will use them (unless they manage to make them rubbish, like the Voidraven). And I think that if superheavies become the go-to unit for DE that will change the feel of the army for the worse.

HokutoAndy wrote:

Humnhapymeal wrote:

Anyway what do you guys think

I figure DE could use a super heavy PIRATE SHIP. Something that can hold 20+ warriors and has a webway portal mounted in it to bring out more warriors. Basically the Forgeworld Tantalus.

Aside from that, Dark Eldar already make use of slow, tough units like the talos. Dark Eldar also have the resources to have space fleets with kilometer+ long battleships, so something like "a godzilla Talos" or "Dark Eldar Titan" is not outside of their resources.

Seriously if the Talos never existed in 3e and was added in this edition you'd probably have people complain "We're suppose to be lighting fast raiders why are we getting this giant smashy slow guy!?"

But if given a choice the super-heavy pirate ship is what I'd go for. It can even have a Titan-sized Bladevane attack for plowing through enemy superheavies then portaling in troops into the heart of your foe's army.

Actually a gaint space ship could really work if we think about it in a a way similar to Eldar Corsairs.
There could be a truely big space ship with incredible firepower which serves as a base and home. With own haemonculi sectors, cloning labs and everything else a Kabal needs.

Or some hangars so it acts as an aircraft carrier as well. The only thing I would be worring about is the prolonged exposure to realspace and its subsequent influence from She Who Thirsts, but if there would be a way to create a "protective bubble" similar to the one of the Webway I don't see a problem with it. Of course, creating such technology would be out of reach for current eldars, maybe as some sort of pre-fall technology?

This would minimalize the thread coming from opposing Kabals and allows to focus on raids entierly. Really, what's better than a flying operation basis? You can unleash everything you have upon a nearby planet and in case you face stronger resistance, you can nuke them with crazy darklight supercannons and other stuff. And you still have access to the Webway, of course.

But this might exceed the definition of a superheavy ^^


@Plastikente: Yeah

I guess I don't really have a horse in this race, but as far as plausibility... I have a hard time buying that all the Archons, Succubi, and Haemonculi in Commorragh come back from their respective raids, look at each other, and say... "Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good about where we're at. Let's sideline the arms race for now..."

None of them have any concerns? Really?

Edit: And the ones that do? Well, they'll just put all their faith in an alliance with the CWE. Because that will definitely last.