1500pts Pure DE with Urien

I thought I'd have a go at making a pure DE list, led by Urien.

DE Combined-Arms Detachment:

HQ
Urien Rakarth

Elites
5 Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon

5 Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon

Troops
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon

Troops
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon

9 Warriors w/ Blaster
- Raider w/ Disintegrator, Splinter Racks

10 Warriors
- Raider w/ Dark Lance, Splinter Racks

10 Warriors
- Raider w/ Dark Lance, Splinter Racks

FA
5 Scourges w/ 4x Haywire Blaster

3 Reavers

HS
Ravager w/ 3x Dark Lance

1500pts

Urien goes with the 9 Warriors and tries to keep within 12" of whatever needs his bonus the most.

If you're wondering 'why Urien?', it's basically because he's the only HQ in the DE book that I even remotely like. And, if I use Covens, I'd just use a normal Haemonculus as my warlord.

That aside, any thoughts or suggestions?

The Reavers need at least Cluster Caltrops. Personally I also think they work best as either 6 or 9 model units.

I'm also not convinced that Trueborn with Blasters are better than more Scourges and Reavers. Trueborn are not bad, but the massive buffs to Reavers/Scourges and the fact that Trueborn can't be taken as a three model unit means the calculation changes.

And you are correct, the first thing I asked myself was "why Urien?" Have you considered getting some Grots in a Raider with him instead? He just seems so useless and expensive riding around in a gunboat Raider which he actually reduces the effectiveness of to buff units that don't really matter. He gets you to FNP faster, but on warriors that isn't all that cost effective and he is unlikely to be in range of the Reavers or Scourges anyway.

Izathel makes some very good points.

If you're looking to take Urien, he actually pairs very well with an Archon, believe it or not. Together they are majority T5, WS7 and can come with 2++, 4++ when the shadowfield goes, with it will not die - very tough to wound that little lot, which in return puts out some nasty return attacks. It's not cheap, but is a serious speed bump to most things.

I'd be inclined to flip out the blasterborn squads for another squad of scourges and maybe a medusa court in a venom.

Izathel wrote:

The Reavers need at least Cluster Caltrops.  Personally I also think they work best as either 6 or 9 model units.

Yeah, I agree.

Mostly, they're in there to get my list to add up exactly right. I'm somewhat OCD about 1500pt lists that end up as 1497pts or the like.

Izathel wrote:

I'm also not convinced that Trueborn with Blasters are better than more Scourges and Reavers.  Trueborn are not bad, but the massive buffs to Reavers/Scourges and the fact that Trueborn can't be taken as a three model unit means the calculation changes.

Well, I used took them as 4-model units, so it's only a 7pt increase over what I paid last edition.

I agree scourges are probably better, but I only own 5 at the moment.

With regard to Reavers, what would you arm them with? I mean, it seems like they'll be jinking most of the time, so they won't get much use out of Heat Lances.

Izathel wrote:

And you are correct, the first thing I asked myself was "why Urien?" Have you considered getting some Grots in a Raider with him instead?  He just seems so useless and expensive riding around in a gunboat Raider which he actually reduces the effectiveness of to buff units that don't really matter.  He gets you to FNP faster, but on warriors that isn't all that cost effective and he is unlikely to be in range of the Reavers or Scourges anyway.

You're right, sadly.

I could try and make room for some Grots, but do you feel they're worth it without the Coven Supplement?

With regard to the warriors, I think I'm stuck in the mindset of the old book - where I'd often had 9 warriors and a 60pt Haemonculus with a Liquifier Gun. Somehow I mentally upgraded that to the new Haemonculus... and then upgraded him to Urien.

With all that you've said, I think I'll scrap this list and try something else (probably coven related ). Thanks for knocking some sense into me.

EDIT:

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

If you're looking to take Urien, he actually pairs very well with an Archon, believe it or not. Together they are majority T5, WS7 and can come with 2++, 4++ when the shadowfield goes, with it will not die - very tough to wound that little lot, which in return puts out some nasty return attacks. It's not cheap, but is a serious speed bump to most things.

How would you use that 'squad'? If you see what I mean.

Oops, accidental double post.

Could a Mod please delete this as I have no idea how to.

Grots are awesome whether from the supplement or the normal book, I've used them as a bodyguard for my hq several times now and I've never lost them all in a game. Equally they bullied a squad of Tyranid Warriors in combat thanks to the high number of attacks and ID on 6's.

I used the Urien/Archon combo kind of by accident a couple of weeks ago, the archon and urien came in by WWP accompanying my scourges, then after tanking a round of shooting to keep them alive they charged a nearby blob squad after splitting off from the scourge unit.

Only conscripts so cheap chaff, albeit with a priest and commissar in there, but crucially this was my opponent's big holding unit for objectives. The WWP got me close enough to charge, and they easily shrugged off 30 triple firing lasrifles on overwatch, and basically then just minced their way through the unit over several turns. I could have challenged his priest/commissar but by not doing that, I kept the majority rules whilst being able to decide which model to allocate wounds to in combat, so once the shadowfield popped i started putting any wounds scored on urien instead, since he still had an invun and a chance of regaining lost wounds anyway.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Grots are awesome whether from the supplement or the normal book, I've used them as a bodyguard for my hq several times now and I've never lost them all in a game. Equally they bullied a squad of Tyranid Warriors in combat thanks to the high number of attacks and ID on 6's.

Interesting.

Did the nids not bully you back with their own ID?

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I used the Urien/Archon combo kind of by accident a couple of weeks ago, the archon and urien came in by WWP accompanying my scourges, then after tanking a round of shooting to keep them alive they charged a nearby blob squad after splitting off from the scourge unit.

Only conscripts so cheap chaff, albeit with a priest and commissar in there, but crucially this was my opponent's big holding unit for objectives. The WWP got me close enough to charge, and they easily shrugged off 30 triple firing lasrifles on overwatch, and basically then just minced their way through the unit over several turns. I could have challenged his priest/commissar but by not doing that, I kept the majority rules whilst being able to decide which model to allocate wounds to in combat, so once the shadowfield popped i started putting any wounds scored on urien instead, since he still had an invun and a chance of regaining lost wounds anyway.

Interesting.

Would you recommend running them like that - with scourges and a WWP, or should I just put them together in a Venom?

No, the Warriors didn't have high enough strength to cause ID on Grots at T5.

I'd definitely recommend taking the shadowfield with heat lance scourges, care over your Deep Strike placement means you can pretty much cover the whole squad with a good invun so unless your opponent wants to dedicate a lot of firepower to it (and I've had people look at the 2++ and just go, nah) they're going to be around next turn too.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

No, the Warriors didn't have high enough strength to cause ID on Grots at T5.

Yes, but boneswords are AP3 and inflict instant death on to-wound rolls of 6 (much like Flesh Gauntlets).

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I'd definitely recommend taking the shadowfield with heat lance scourges, care over your Deep Strike placement means you can pretty much cover the whole squad with a good invun so unless your opponent wants to dedicate a lot of firepower to it (and I've had people look at the 2++ and just go, nah) they're going to be around next turn too.

I'll give that a go.

Ah, didn't realise that about boneswords - no, he took guns on them instead.

Ok, here's a revised list with some grotesques for Urien to hang out with:

HQ
Urien Rakarth

Elites
5 Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
5 Trueborn w/ 4x Blaster
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
4 Grotesques, Aberration w/ Scissorhands
Raider w/ Dark Lance

Troops
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
5 Warriors
- Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
10 Warriors
- Raider w/ Dark Lance, Splinter Racks
10 Warriors
- Raider w/ Dark Lance, Splinter Racks

FA
5 Scourges w/ 4x Haywire Blaster

HS
Ravager w/ 3x Dark Lance

1500pts

Is that any better?

Looks pretty workable to me, no obvious weaknesses anywhere.