How to deal with grey knights and blood angels

Hi everyone,
I've been getting creamed every game this week to flamer spam and jump/shunt/fast infantry and vehicles and I'm fed up. Does anyone have good tactics against a grey knight list invoking multiple dreadknights with torrent flamers, tyrannical war drop pod and heavy flamer squads? The blood angels I have a slightly easier time with now that I know how dangerous a 10 man death stat of DC with corbulo and priest are, but alpha striking multiple flamers still kill whole units first turn

Null Deployment. He can't kill whats not on the table.
Also either eldar allies or pain engines/grots are hard to deal with when he plays too flamer heavy.

Dont forget to stuff your transports full, even if your filling them with cheap models so that the wounds can be soaked up.

Venom spam and deep strike the anti tank. I'm planning on running a list that has 22 infantry because it has to (4 warrior squads min sized 2 hq). flamers aren't as dangerous against the vehicle as they are against troops. Venoms are the best 65 point models in the game so as long as you have anti tank in reserve you are good against the flamer alpha strike.

If you have trouble killing Space Marines in the shooting phase, you might want to think about using Disintegrators instead of Dark Lances on your Raiders, and leave anti-tanking to other units (Ravagers, Blasterborn, Scourges, ect.).

Also, the Helm of Spite can really mess up opponents who rely on psychic powers, such as Grey Knights: In a 12'' bubble around it, your units have Adamantine Will and enemy psykers peril on any doubles. But remember to give the carrier a good meatshield!

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Null Deployment. He can't kill whats not on the table.
Also either eldar allies or pain engines/grots are hard to deal with when he plays too flamer heavy.

Flamer-heavy opponents will "love" you for bringing an Avatar.

Do incinerators and heavy incinerators count for the avatars immunity? Don't think they do.

Not that it matters, wasting flamer templates on single models is unwise. Also grey knight get loads of bonuses against deamons.

Mushkilla wrote:

Do incinerators and heavy incinerators count for the avatars immunity? Don't think they do.

They do actually. Unusually for GW they actually thought about that when they wrote the GK Codex and said:

All the following weapons are Flamer weapons for the purposes of any special rules that interact with Flamer weapons as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

Deploy wisely blocking infantry with empty vehicles, hide blasters so they can't reach them with templates. The big issue for DE (and orks) with flamers are the auto wounds on open topped transports, if you avoid that half the work is done. If they burn your 40pts kab war is not a big problem, if their venom is somewhere else.

Mushkilla wrote:

Not that it matters, wasting flamer templates on single models is unwise. Also grey knight get loads of bonuses against deamons.

It's not about your opponent trying to use his flamers against the Avatar and failing.
It's about your opponent expecting to fight an army of squishy infantry and light, open-topped vehicles, thus kitting his army out for burninating them, only to be faced with a monster his special weapons can't do anything against.

The Avatar is great against Blood Angels and Adepta Sororitas. Not so much against Grey Knights, but there are other things in the Eldar codex that help against them.

Haven't met new blood angels recently, but they look nasty for us. Grey knight shunting and nemesis fudgery I do have experience with. Null deployment might be an option but sometimes you need to hit a crippling blow in the first turn when quick armies like Gk are already in your deployment turn 1 (turns it into turn 3 effectively).

If you don't have first turn, spacing out your army is quite good. Limits the effectiveness of a flamer (salamanders player here, I have mastered the flames). Each flamer will get 1, sure. Its when stuff is bunched together and 1 flamer gets 3 where you have a problem.

Also, risk the difficult terrain. If he wants to deep strike to flame you then he's going to have to consider the possibility of misshapping. Scare him off playing high risk.

Venoms still get that 5++ invulnerable save remember!

If you do have first turn, scatter lads! Spread yourself out using enhances aethersails. Deepstriking and shunting armies are only mobile when they drop in or shunt. So, spread out, some stuff might take a creaming then use your superior and reusable mobility to regroup and dish out the pain.

Blood Angels drop pod lists can do quite the number on us, depending on the amount of meltas/plasmas in that list. My other list in construction is 2 sterns, 2 tacs and 2 furioso libbies in drop pods.

How do we deal with 10 man paladin squad with drago and a librarian using invisiblty and infinity gate?

I tried with 6 talos a hammie and 2 cronos. The talos had sc and chain flails. I don't remember what the hamme had

You ignore it. That squad is 1000+ points that can only shoot at 1 target a turn. You kill the rest of his army which should be easy since it is only 800 points (if doing 1850) and then focus on it. Use mobility to force him to cast gate and make him risk the mishap.

Ignore them to death.

Shoot the rest of his army (which probably won't be that much if he has that sort of deathstar) and focus on objectives. I'd prioritise killing Dreadknights, then other mobile units if he has any.

Move away from his paladin-star and make sure it can't multi-charge your units.

Thing is, if your army is anything like mine (ravagers, lots of cheap units in skimmers, small jetbike units and such), then his paladins really can't do anything remotely useful. If they're teleporting around, then they're not charging (so all those expensive force weapons are wasted). If you move away from them, then they probably won't catch you. And, compared to their cost, their firepower is pitiful. Really, he has a 1000+pt unit that's going to spend the game killing a 60pt skimmer or a 55pt troop squad each turn. Sure, it can hold an objective, but if the rest of his army is dead that's the only objective he'll be holding.

I would also add that after destroying the rest of the army and workin on objectives for the rest of the game, spread out! Put different threats on different facings so that you are forcing potential mishaps on gate but so that Draigo can only tank one side. A couple of lances into the side Draigo is not on will ruin those Paladins' day. If you can whittle out the psycannons in the back you are left with a star that moves 6 inches a turn and has weak shooting for a gate effectively removing the squads ability to do much to our highly mobile army.

Make sure your opponent is playing the flamer and torrent rules properly too - I've seen it way too many times now.

the flamer template must be placed so as to cover the maximum amount possible of the target vehicle. that's all well and good for normal flamers where the narrow end is fixed and they can declare the shooting at a vehicle that means they're going to hit both, but it screws torrent flamers over nicely, because they then must place the template along the length of the raider/venom, which makes it highly unlikely they'll be able to hit a second vehicle.

Doesn't help the folks on board but it does mean they should find it almost impossible to hit multiple vehicles

Invisible death stars are also countered by Reavers to some extent. If you charge, you'll have lots of Rending HoW which auto hits, bypassing invisibility.

Thing is though, those paladins have 2 wounds apiece, 2+/5+ saves and FNP.

Even a large number of reavers charging in are likely to inflict negligible casualties.

I just couldn't get him to roll enough 1s. It was crazy unit to deal with. The real blessing was I had to charge him, and he couldn't charge me using the infinity gate

So, have any advice how to deal with Draigobomb?
I will play against them next holidays in local tornament

How effective would a fearless EW covens grot bomb work as a tarpit? Mush made it work against regular grey knights

What's Draigobomb?

The Shredder wrote:

What's Draigobomb?

Draigo with some shooty stuff like paladins or grav centurions.

Grots wouldn't slow them much as Draigo autogets gate and can use it to gate out from cc.

MSU is the way to go. It leaves other stuff minimal bat can only engage one or two units a turn.

Draigo, Tigurius, some librarians, centurions (we call them ''kolobki'' ) and some other stuff.
Other guys in my club says it`s totaly unstopoble. So nobody knows what to do.

Do you think a void raven would be nice with the strength 8 blasts and the bomb?