How do you get your Grotesques?

I'm curious as to which book/formation people get their grotesques from.

Do you take a squad from the main book, or two with the Grotesquerie, or some combination from the Coven detachment?

Oh look, a strength 10 attack (of any sort). There goes lots of points with no saves.

I don't understand why people like Grots

For me, just the normal codex.

That's mainly because i currently don't have the models to run a coven list (working on it, haemie, urien, small wrack squad, 3 grots and two talos are all built) and I'd definitely consider a grotesquerie.

Hellstrom wrote:

Oh look, a strength 10 attack (of any sort).  There goes lots of points with no saves.

S10 is not that common and I'd be more worried by Force Weapons etc.

the only ones that immediately spring to mind are the vindicator (easy to avoid) and the wraithguard (very easy to avoid).

Of course in my case, the best way to lose them is to charge a wraithguard squad, avoiding the wraithcannon overwatch (phew) only to see the spiritseer put two wounds on and watch in horror as 24 attacks turns into no unsaved wounds. Cue a failed morale check and getting swept

Hellstrom wrote:

Oh look, a strength 10 attack (of any sort).  There goes lots of points with no saves.

I don't understand why people like Grots

Well, there's hardly an overabundance of S10 attacks in the game - some armies don't even have any S10 at all.

Grots have most of the prerequisites of a good assault unit

1 - They're tough - yes T5 is tough, they also have 3 wounds each and FnP, and so can survive long enough to get into combat with enough left to actually be able to do something, which brings us to number2

2 - They hit hard to be able to achieve their primary job - 5 S5 attacks base on the charge, as well as d3 extra. Their flesh gauntlets are poisoned 4+ (and with the new poisoned rules, they'll be wounding on 3+ or 2+ with rerolls against MEQ and GEQ) Which also inflict instant death on a 6. Then, their Abberation can get a scissorhand for 5-8 S5 rending hits.

3 - High leadership to avoid being pinned/falling back. - ok this they don't have, however, taking them from the coven supplement gives them fearless on turn 2, and sticking a coven haemy with them gives them fearless from turn 1 already.

4 - Fast to be able to get into combat by turn 2 or 3 - another thing they dont inherently have, but we can solve that with our Raiders. (they can also shrug off the transport exploding with their T5, 3 wounds and FnP

So really, Grotesques are by far our best assault unit, and one of the only ones in the book that can actually acheive their primary goal. Incubi are too squishy. Wyches are both squishy and hit like a wet noodle. Reavers are fast, hit fairly hard with caltrops but are squishy (they are, however, our next best assault unit but should be primarily aimed at tanks) I will confess I don't know much about this edition's beast pack, but I know they aren't what they used to be.

And another note, is that they make the best bodyguard's for our HQs who want to be in combat, such as the Succubus.

Haven't used them that often, but one game it was hilarious. A squad of three T6 Grots (lucky Grotesquerie roll) with an CC Archon in the middlefield and my opponent (Ravenwing) tried very hard be stay out of charge range with his command squad+Sammael
But apart from denying him two tactical objectives (challenge and kill a character), they didn't do much in that game (the other three characters in that list where a haemy in the other Grot squad and a Succubus+Wraithseer in an invisible unit of Wraithguard)

Sometimes the psychological effect of this unit can't be underestimated.

A unit of 3 makes 18 attacks on the charge. This equates to 2.67 unsaved wounds on a unit of Marines.

Even a unit of Llhamaean (same cost) does better. 4.17 unsaved wounds on the charge to any toughness at all (2+ poison). Leadership 9. Granted, they are likely to lose some on the way in, but still going to cause more wounds and have a much wider target choice.

No AP, makes them useless in my opinion, but each to their own I suppose

Hellstrom wrote:

A unit of 3 makes 18 attacks on the charge.  This equates to 2.67 unsaved wounds on a unit of Marines.

Even a unit of Llhamaean (same cost) does better.  4.17 unsaved wounds on the charge to any toughness at all (2+ poison).  Leadership 9.  Granted, they are likely to lose some on the way in, but still going to cause more wounds and have a much wider target choice.

No AP, makes them useless in my opinion, but each to their own I suppose

How long does said unit of Lhameans hang around after their initial charge though? With Grots you pay for resilience as well as decent damage output.

I completely agree. They will last longer, I just don't think they actually kill enough for the points you have to invest.

Hellstrom wrote:

I completely agree.  They will last longer, I just don't think they actually kill enough for the points you have to invest.

They're more likely to maintain that killing power over subsequent turns though whilst Lhameans will see it drop drastically each turn due to casualties. Not to mention it's far harder to get them into combat in the first place. An exploding Raider takes out half the unit but barely even scratches the Grots.

Hellstrom wrote:

Oh look, a strength 10 attack (of any sort).  There goes lots of points with no saves.

I don't understand why people like Grots

But, don't you use Dark Artisan? Where any ID wound will cost you least 125 points.

Exactly, that unit of lhamaeans will generally not charge into a unit at their full strength due to the hoops assault units have to be able to survive in order to reach their target. They can also be pinned and run away. Ld 9 is no sure thing.

Not to mention how easily their FnP is bypassed with the plethora of S6+ weapons out there. Lhamaeans would end up being a suicide assault unit, just as Incubi are if they overkill.

While I do think lhaemaeans can be good for hunting wraithknights and riptides, they're hardly the assault unit that the Grotesques are.

As I said further up, a good assault unit needs to have 4 characteristics:

tough enough to make it to their target,

hit hard to be able to do their job

fast in order to get to their target by turn 2 or 3

strong leadership to not get pinned or flee (fearless is best in this case)

Luckily in our army, being fast is solved by raiders - however, raiders come with the inherent weakness of killing the unit inside when it explodes. Lhamaeans are hurt badly by this, grotesques just shrug it off.

both can get fearless through a coven haemy on turn 1.

both hit hard. but an unsaved wound on the lhamaeans immediately makes them drop in their damage output. Grotesques have to take 3 unsaved wounds (not to mention the base to base, wound allocation shenanigans) before they lose effectiveness.

and for the same reasons Lhamaeans are affected by the raider issue, they are not likely to hit their target at full strength - grotesques are tough, lhamaeans are not.

If we're talking about regular codex Grotesques then I am sympathetic to Hellstrom's arguments.

However, the Grotesquerie is a totally different beast. Every single one of the Latest Experiment abilities is super helpful, plus the Covens PfP chart makes the Grotesques into Super Grots as the game progresses. They are great murdering light vehicles/anything with rear AV10-11 due to their high number of attacks. They are great tarpit units due to Fearless, FNP, T5, and three wounds. And their poison re-roll, Instant Death weapons make MCs and multi-wound units pretty nervous. In my mind, they are the homeless man's Wraiths. I'm not saying they're anywhere as resilient as Wraiths, but they are a tough tarpit unit that will grind down other tough units (if they don't have Force or Str10!) and win the war of attrition.

sweetbacon wrote:

If we're talking about regular codex Grotesques then I am sympathetic to Hellstrom's arguments.

That is true, although I don't see the reason for ever taking them from the regular DE codex, the first 2 turns of PfP are a waste on the grots, although furious charge is nice.

The normal coven detachment is the best way to run them imo (if you're not taking Grotesquerie that is)

It's also a nice way to run them if you're taking a coven detachment for other reasons (such as sprinkling a couple of haemies across your army, and you're forced to take 2 elite slots)

One thing you could do though, is take the grots from the regular DE codex and stick a coven Haemy with them to give them turn 1 fearless, and turn 3 furious charge, Although then they're missing out on eternal warrior etc.

Llhamaean's were a bad example, I just meant that I can't really see them killing anything.

Saying that ... you have all persuaded me. I'll replace my Dark Artisan with a Grotesquerie for a few games and see how I get on with them

I use my codex Grots together with a Succubus, either in a Raider or with WWP.
I have only 4, so the Coven formations are not an option yet.

I use 4 regulars with a succubus. Tonight they happily took down 40-50 Ork boys before biting the bullet. That was awesome

I just finished my 8 grotesque conversions to start testing the grotesquerie. The strength 10's I'm nervous about though are the dreadknight, thunderwolf cavalry, and doomscythes/annihilation barges (I think that's the name of the necron heavy vehicle with the strength 10 large blast when it doesn't move).

Those are all very popular units at my club so I'm interested to see how they work out. Hopefully the raiders with enhanced aethersails will let me choose my fights enough to avoid those.

Strength 10 doesn't come in droves outside of Wriathguard lists and those are easy enough for us to handle. I have found strength 10 not to be a problem too much as those are target priority #1 and are often taken out in the first 2 turns.

My biggest problem has been Daemonettes, Walkers, and the very specific Dimachaeron (which all the Nid players by me have). Wraiths have been tough only because of not usually getting Rampage and getting through the 3++ can be a pain.

I have run them for both, the hard part for me is finding a place for the Haemon in the Grotesquerie as I have 1 squad run with a Glaive Succubus and the other squad run with a Soulshrive Autarch. So the Haemon is kinda left in the wind. I need to find some points to run the Haemon and decide what to do with him, but I love the thought of Combat Drug Grotesques running around!

Hellstrom wrote:

No AP, makes them useless in my opinion, but each to their own I suppose

It's good that they can take an aberration with an agoniser then isn't it.

Also with rampage they average 7 attacks on the charge each and 8 on the aberration. So that's 5.6 unsaved wounds against marines. Depends what you want though two round combats are key, so multi-charging becomes important if you go the agoniser route. Doubly so because you want to be outnumbered for rampage to kick in.

In answer to the above, I like running them with a succubus, so I take regular grotesques.

No AP means they work similarry to venoms. Number of wounds is what counts.

Remember though that multicharge doesn't trigger Rampage. But it will kick in on seocond round of combat.

Mushkilla wrote:

In answer to the above, I like running them with a succubus, so I take regular grotesques.

Why not take 2 detachments? Then take the grotesques from the covenite coterie detachment, that way the unit gets fearless on turn 2. You could even stick a haemy with them too - fearless turn 1, and it gets the succubus up her own PfP table faster.

@Vasara yup rampage triggers round 2 and that's exactly what you want for two round combat. Be killy their turn, not yours.

I run 3 (cos that's all I own) with either a succubus or a haemonculus, and out of the regular codex. I'll normally try and upgrade one to an Aberration to eat challenges if necessary. Mostly because they're one of our few viable "bodyguard" units in that you can stick a character with them and fit them in a transport without hamstringing the unit's effectiveness.