Quin/De synergy

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

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It is an assault army and not a shooting army. In my opinion it's just silly to take harlequins for shooty purposes.

Interesting... and to prove that it is a melee centered army you took an awful lot of shooty units.

It is my first list with them (also wanted to try all the painted models I have), but I think it is pretty apparent that it is an assault list.

A good assault list is not made with only assault units necesserily.
The Voidweaver is basicaly a tax I have to pay. Same goes for the 3 Death Jesters.

The Skyweavers are there for three reasons:
1. To help e crack some transports so my assault units can charge the prize when they get there.

2. To threat my opponent and perhaps draw shots from my assault units.

3. To use their speed to get me some objectives (in my gaming group maelstorm of war missions make the 90% of the games we play).

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x12 Troupe: 321pts
Harlequin Caresses x12, Starmist Raiment on Troupe Master.

x6 Troupe: 163pts
Harlequin Caresses x6, Haywire Grenades on Troupe Master.

x1 Starweaver: 70pts

Those prices hurt my eyes and soul.

Well, I think Harlequins are a shooty army, with some chirurgical attack.

HERO wrote:

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x12 Troupe: 321pts
Harlequin Caresses x12, Starmist Raiment on Troupe Master.

x6 Troupe: 163pts
Harlequin Caresses x6, Haywire Grenades on Troupe Master.

x1 Starweaver: 70pts

Those prices hurt my eyes and soul.

As a many years warhammer fantasy player (if I remember correctly we are both members of Ulthuan Net) I see your point regarding the cost of the units I'm using here, but I have found in 40k that I prefer to have an expensive unit that I know for sure it will work than making discounts.

In the big unit I put the 3 Shadowseers and a Death Jester or two. The key to survival is the invisibility spell which lets me get very aggressive with them. The caresses may seem expensive but ythey allow the unit to be able to fight (and win 90% of the time) anything.

All the good Deathstar assult units are expensive, so you can't avoid this.

Regarding your review I don't see the point in getting quins for shooting purposes. If you do that then yes the weaponless troupe unitsbecome a tax and in my opinion a tax all too high for my tastes. I'll give you that an assault harlequin army is not as good as a shooting Eldar/Dark Eldar one, but I believe that with good list building and good strategy, it can be a nice fluffy and competitive army...

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but I have found in 40k that I prefer to have an expensive unit that I know for sure it will work than making discounts.

How can you be "sure" that this unit will work?

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In the big unit I put the 3 Shadowseers and a Death Jester or two. The key to survival is the invisibility spell...

So you basically putting 3 Shadowseers in one unit and HOPE that 6 rolls are enough to get invis. This is not "sure" this is gambling. Your chances are 66.51 % (IF you upgrade them to lvl 2). Thats is far away from "sure".

Also you deny your shadowseers from casting powers multiple times as they are in the same unit. Not to speak of the possibility you mess up your power rolls or get denied.

"Sure" is different.

This is not a deathstar. Deathstars have mobility most of the time (which you do not have with 12 models). have staying power (which T3 and a mere 5++ is not) and a high kill potential (the only thing you have).

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Interesting... and to prove that it is a melee centered army you took an awful lot of shooty units.

The unit choices are determined by the formation, not much has been added there to make the army shooty. The troupes could have been equipped with Neuro Disruptors instead of CC upgrades too.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

So you basically putting 3 Shadowseers in one unit and HOPE that 6 rolls are enough to get invis. This is not "sure" this is gambling. Your chances are 66.51 % (IF you upgrade them to lvl 2). Thats is far away from "sure".

"Sure" is different.

This is not a deathstar. Deathstars have mobility most of the time (which you do not have with 12 models). have staying power (which T3 and a mere 5++ is not) and a high kill potential (the only thing you have).

You are wrong. If you look at the list you will notice I also have a lv3 Farseer, so I have 9 rolls to get invisibility.

Regarding mobility the unit has fleet and ignores all terrain for movement. Combined with run and charge from turn 2+ and good chances to get extra inches from warlord trait abilities (one can give scout to d3 units and another one gives +1 inch to all movements thus giving the unit a +5 inches movement as a whole with move/run/move/run/charge) . With those in mind the unit has good mobility and quite a large threat range regarding charges. As infantry goes you can't get faster than harlequins.

The invisibility provides them with all the defence they need unless the opponent pours all of his shooting on them (which will not be enough to do the job if it is not applied for at least two turns that the opponent may not really have if I go first) and even then the rest of the army will do its job.

As for "sure", the only thing that is for sure in life is death and taxes. It's a game of chances. There is no 100% that a unit will do what you expect of them but the ARE propabilities wich help you minimize the random factor and get the results you want most of the time...

Veil of tears seems pretty sure to me.

I'd be interested to know what your strategy for rolling the psychic powers would be with that army, there's the potential (admittedly low) of getting invis, veil, dance, fortune and sanctuary.

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If you do that then yes the weaponless troupe unitsbecome a tax and in my opinion a tax all too high for my tastes. I'll give you that an assault harlequin army is not as good as a shooting Eldar/Dark Eldar one, but I believe that with good list building and good strategy, it can be a nice fluffy and competitive army...

I'll give you that yes, weaponless troupes become a tax, but it can also be a Caress delivery system for the Troupe Master I guess.  All you need is one person to do the damage really and some bodies to take the damage, or else I can't justify losing 20ppm to a god damn explosion.

Fluffy and competitive ideologies conflict, I know this because I try and make my armies pretty fluff, but build a GOOD army around the principle.  I think if you're going to go for assault, I would rather look for 2-3 upgrades and keep the rest of the unit as cheap as you can.  Start with upgrades on the Troupe Master and do a 3:1 ratio of upgrades on the unit, I think that's the best balance if you don't want Troupes to be tax.

And yes, I am also on Ulthuan.net. I play High Elves in Fantasy and Dark Eldar in 40K, go figure.

Skunty wrote:

Veil of tears seems pretty sure to me.

I'd be interested to know what your strategy for rolling the psychic powers would be with that army, there's the potential (admittedly low) of getting invis, veil, dance, fortune and sanctuary.

Well the first thing I do when rolling for powers is to roll for the Farseer. With three dice he has better chances than the others to get invisibility. Also if I get invisibility with him it unlocks me the choice to go full phantasmacy with the Shadowseers as I find it very versatile and effective. Finally the fact that he has 3 wounds and the ability to ignore the perils of the warp wounds allows me to throw 7 or 8 dice on invisibility with little to no risk.

On a side note if he by any chance rolls the shrouding power I deploy him with my two transports within 6 inches so he can offer them some 2+ cover save with jink sweetness.

Well you don't need the Farseer to get 2+ cover saves on transports you know
Although that is a much more efficient method if you do roll it.

Skunty wrote:

Well you don't need the farseer to get 2+ cover saves on transports you know

The Farseer is pretty much better than the Shadowseer in almost every way though, I agree with the Farseer choice.

HERO wrote:

 I think if you're going to go for assault, I would rather look for 2-3 upgrades and keep the rest of the unit as cheap as you can.  Start with upgrades on the Troupe Master and do a 3:1 ratio of upgrades on the unit, I think that's the best balance if you don't want Troupes to be tax.

I see what you mean but the principle of the caress to work is to have many attacks with it so you can have enough of 6s on to hit in order to make a difference. For example 6 harlequins with caress on teh charge will net you four 6s which will (with the addition of one haywire grenade shot before the charge) can make short work of any vehicle regardless of its armor, even a landraider.

Or kill 4 marines. or kill a monster. Of course it is not suer they'll get there without any casualties but in order for them to be able to take a casualty or two and still be useful.

Skunty wrote:

Well you don't need the Farseer to get 2+ cover saves on transports you know
Although that is a much more efficient method if you do roll it.

The Farseer on jetbike can keep up with them in and it is easy to position him where is needed to pull the shroud stunt.

Hence my edit.

Although I'll point out as this is a DE/Harlequin thread not everyone will be wanting to take a Farseer.

I've been trying to find a good ratio of upgrades for a troupe for a while now.
Hero, you mention a 3:1 ratio.

So Caress on the Troupe Master - which is the best choice I think, then what about 2 kisses and 2 normal guys in a basic 5 man team - going up to 4 kisses and 5-7 normal guys in a 10-12 man unit with the master still having a caress? That is more of a 2:1 ratio of course - but it doesn't feel too expensive.

In the case of the 5 man team, having 2 kisses is better than 1 - as they say in terms of preparation: 2 is 1, 1 is none.

Or would you just got with caress on TM and caresses on the upgraded guys instead of kisses? 6 man teams might be better with the TM with caress and 2 upgraded guys then 3 normal - But then I'd prefer to stick in some DJs in the Starweaver.

Siegfried VII wrote:

HERO wrote:

 I think if you're going to go for assault, I would rather look for 2-3 upgrades and keep the rest of the unit as cheap as you can.  Start with upgrades on the Troupe Master and do a 3:1 ratio of upgrades on the unit, I think that's the best balance if you don't want Troupes to be tax.

I see what you mean but the principle of the caress to work is to have many attacks with it so you can have enough of 6s on to hit in order to make a difference. For example 6 harlequins with caress on teh charge will net you four 6s which will (with the addition of one haywire grenade shot before the charge) can make short work of any vehicle regardless of its armor, even a landraider.

Or kill 4 marines. or kill a monster. Of course it is not suer they'll get there without any casualties but in order for them to be able to take a casualty or two and still be useful.

Too expensive for my tastes really.  You don't need a lot of caresses to do the damage I think, so say you have 3 Troupes with only the caress + Haywire on the Troupe Master, or at max another Harlequin is totting Kiss or something, you can always combo charge a unit.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, look at the 3 Troupes as 1 unit for purposes of assault, but don't sink too many points into any single unit. Each unit should be able to reach its target providing you're not too far apart when going to the assault. 6" move, 3.5" run, 7" charge, re-rolls for +3" math wise, says you'll reach ~17" on average dice ignoring all terrain. I think for other units that will be a challenge, but for Harlequins's Rising Crescendo + Fleet, you can make it happen np.

It's easy to do (overspend I mean), I ran some 2nd end models as the cast of players and decided the power fists would fit as caresses. Between the 4 or 5 of them, the kiss + neuro disruptor models and the mandatory characters I had spent almost 400 pts.

Skunty wrote:

Hence my edit.

Although I'll point out as this is a DE/Harlequin thread not everyone will be wanting to take a Farseer.

Well if you don't want Eldar allies and you aren't dead on having that reroll to all 1s on invunerable save you can swap some Death Jesters for extra Shadowseers and still get more dice for invisibility.

Off course you cannot have the advantages of the Farseer I mentioned above, but you can put a WWP Archon with the unit and deepstrike it in the face of your opponent. Each approach has its benefits.

The problem with deep striking an assault unit though (especially one as fragile as the quins) is that they sit for a turn and twiddle their thumbs (sure they can get out some shooting, but unless you're sticking fusion pistols or neuro disruptors on them - which gets really expensive then) your shooting with the unit will hardly be scary.

and then you better hope you get invisibility because you will be decimated by shooting the next turn.

You could opt to deepstrike behind LoS Blocking cover of course - but they still essentially waste a turn.

I feel like the best kind of units to deepstrike would be tough shooting units (wraithguard, for example) They come down, annihilate something as their shooting is actually something to be afraid of, and then they can tank quite a bit of shots after that with the T6 and 2+inv of the archon. Thereby immediately having an impact on the game on the turn they come down.

Then again, I still wouldn't even deepstrike grotesques in and they're actually tough enough to survive some shooting - I just hate wasting a turn with an assault unit. Even if it presents a very real threat to the enemy as they now have to deal with a grot unit in their face - it's still an entire turn that the grots are doing nothing - giving you a turn 3 assault at the earliest.

The fact that the quins can ride in our transports, or footslog with veils and run and charge in the same turn and move through cover - the best way of delivering a big unit of them is to probably just run them up the board using cover. Just make sure you have a ton of other threats moving up with them though.

I'm actually struggling with the DE side of the army myself. The haemy formations probably fit the approach I'd like to go for but have no fast slot Venoms or Razorwing but the codex DE formations mean taking troop choices that I don't find complementary.

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Skunty wrote:

I'm actually struggling with the DE side of the army myself. The haemy formations probably fit the approach I'd like to go for but have no fast slot Venoms or Razorwing but the codex DE formations mean taking troop choices that I don't find complementary.

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two or one units of 5 barebone kabalite warriors sitting hiden behind cover on objectives are a pretty small tax that provides with tactical benefits. I mean someone has to hold the objectives on your side of the table while your army marches on to smite the enemy...

@Caldria: if you get a good number of threat to your opponent the same turn the Quins deep strikes, is not obviously theirs death. That's another way to DS a fragile unit.

Ps. shooty units have his weakness: they cannot run after DS. So watch out against Templates/blasts

Yup, but thats why I would only deepstrike Wraithguard with a shadowfield Archon, so they can shoot and tank the shots with T6 2++

Or Fire Dragons that can battle focus to shoot and run.

The other unit I normally deepstrike is the Dark Artisan, as its definitely quite tough enough to absorb a fair amount of fire, and can still do some alright shooting the turn they come down - but they are then a big thing to worry about the turn after.

In most of my games the DA just act as area denial though, but it has helped me to entirely scatter their models and put them into the sight of my ravagers and venoms, and just overall limiting their movement.

Bringing the Dark Artisan down with a unit of harlies could work, as both will be a very big threat next turn - the only thing is that if your opponent has no choice but to pick a unit to kill, he'll obviously go for the harlies as they're much easier to kill. So the harlies act more as a threat to take attention off of the DA than the other way around I guess.

Caldria wrote:

Yup, but thats why I would only deepstrike Wraithguard with a shadowfield Archon, so they can shoot and tank the shots with T6 2++

Or Fire Dragons that can battle focus to shoot and run.

The other unit I normally deepstrike is the Dark Artisan, as its definitely quite tough enough to absorb a fair amount of fire, and can still do some alright shooting the turn they come down - but they are then a big thing to worry about the turn after.

In most of my games the DA just act as area denial though, but it has helped me to entirely scatter their models and put them into the sight of my ravagers and venoms, and just overall limiting their movement.

Bringing the Dark Artisan down with a unit of harlies could work, as both will be a very big threat next turn - the only thing is that if your opponent has no choice but to pick a unit to kill, he'll obviously go for the harlies as they're much easier to kill. So the harlies act more as a threat to take attention off of the DA than the other way around I guess.

I love the Artisan, but that's not what I mean. Not another DeepStriking unit, just other fast threats.
Something like Reavers, Grots on Raiders, Beastmasters, even Mandrakes, all things with you can push the enemy.
Add the Harleys DeepStriking unit...


But i prefer Faoulchu's Blade and Heroes Path, witch bring something that we miss.
My 2 cents obviusly

Caldria wrote:

I've been trying to find a good ratio of upgrades for a troupe for a while now.
Hero, you mention a 3:1 ratio.

So Caress on the Troupe Master - which is the best choice I think, then what about 2 kisses and 2 normal guys in a basic 5 man team - going up to 4 kisses and 5-7 normal guys in a 10-12 man unit with the master still having a caress? That is more of a 2:1 ratio of course - but it doesn't feel too expensive.

In the case of the 5 man team, having 2 kisses is better than 1 - as they say in terms of preparation: 2 is 1, 1 is none.

Or would you just got with caress on TM and caresses on the upgraded guys instead of kisses? 6 man teams might be better with the TM with caress and 2 upgraded guys then 3 normal - But then I'd prefer to stick in some DJs in the Starweaver.

Why put the Caress on the Troupe Master? Since he can take a Haywire grenade wouldn't it be better if a normal player had it? That way if going up against a vehicle the caress isn't wasted, especially since the extra WS on the master doesn't help you get more 6s.

Caldria wrote:

The problem with deep striking an assault unit though (especially one as fragile as the quins) is that they sit for a turn and twiddle their thumbs (sure they can get out some shooting, but unless you're sticking fusion pistols or neuro disruptors on them - which gets really expensive then) your shooting with the unit will hardly be scary.

Well if you take a Harlequin formation that gives rising crescendo I don't think you would have to deep strike them. 30" move on turn one if they are in a starweaver, then another 12" move (6" from moving the transport, 6" disembark) and then ~4" run and then ~7" charge. That is basically then entire board and you don't need to worry about terrain with any of it. Maybe the transport will get shot down but you only lose 6" in that case, with a 4++ though there is a decent chance it will survive.