Codex Harlequins Review

Devilogical wrote:

Very strange review.

I like where this is going. How is it strange?

Quote :

I like where this is going. How is it strange?

Its more of a stat line interpretation and general what competiteve what not i.e. "cost effective". Means what cost less and kill more presuming simple tactics. But this army is an elite army, high quality, low model count. It sure as hell wont play itself by itslelf. It needs a plan, an idea, something to drive it forward. And only in perspective of this idea we can actually judge what we have.

How do you plan to play it? Is it driving everything forward one flank, or play shooty game, what do you want to do with it? How do you plan to win with it? You may win or lose, but surely you plan something, because if you dont plan, you react instead of act.

This thing is missing in the review. And im not surprised, because i dont know what is the plan for them too. And because of it review is directionless.

Yes we know that they are elite army, meaning if you buy them at full potentiall you will  have less models then opponent. What does it tell us? How do we deal with it? We have army wide hit and run, what does it tell us, how do we use it? Their another army wide skill "Rising Crescnedo" give us slightly longer assault range, so, how do we use this? Or do we?

And so on and on...

Its clear what to do with DE - full agression head on, kick out key enemy units, kill mobility, outrun, outgun, score. Is it so with Harlies? Im not so sure. Too expensive for that, see low model count, low save.

I mean do you really expect to show up with a T3 5+ terminator cost units and expect all the right moves to be obvious? Those guys absolutely require strategy. They probably require other units from DE or CWE rosters to even play.

Returning to your review. Well - we know Harlies cant be taken as point and click army in the right "competetive" proportions. That was kinda obvious from the begining. So you did show that in the review. What we have is either very expensive or squishy, no news here.

Except, there's no principle that the Harlequins have that DE players are not accustomed to already.  Their defensive stats are roughly the same, they call for the forbidden art of assault, and they're expensive.  You're paying for overpriced Wyches, and costs more and more as you take the upgrades available to them.

I think your idea of elite army and high quality is vastly different than mine from a competitive standpoint.  By elite, do you mean that they're expensive?  That the average points per model is high?  By high quality, do you mean that they're going to get their points back or more?  Or are they so good at a particular thing that justifies their "elite" cost?  Because in that sense, I don't think they're elite, but overpriced.  They don't do anything particularly well, and certainly not for the points.  From a cost-effective standpoint, they are neither elite (meaning, expensive, but good) or high quality (which means very good).

This is the crux of the problem with your interpretation of my review.  I think you're vastly overthinking what you can accomplish with T3 5+ 1W models.  The truth is much more simple:  You're paying a lot for something that can't accomplish a lot.  This book came 3 editions too late for that, and I think my review screams that loud and clear, which was the goal.

The truth hurts, a great deal more for some people, hence why you see the review differently than others.

So you mean you dont actually plan to play with them and win? =)
Whats the point of reviewing? Glancing look at hard army? Boohooo, stay away ? ))

Understand me correct, i just like the challenge. It is interesting.
And i seen Harlies played in 5th on a high level. So in practice i know they can be played well. It was totally unexpected games always, guy lost almost every unit and still at the end only he was scoring.

Quote :

The truth hurts

Falling of motorcycle hurts )) This hobby is way safer.

Quote :

By elite, do you mean that they're expensive?

You have to buy upgrades to make them assault viable, you have to buy items for characters, and both upgrades and models cost more then average. So if you buy - you pay points, if you dont buy - you are functionally getting useless unit. Logical decision is to buy and think a way of play without sweet backup units a.k.a. MSU and less margin of error.

Dont compare them to Wyches please.  This is intelligent discussion. Their difference from Wyches is plain in stats.

Paladins, Ravenwing, Deathwing, MANz, Mushkillas double Grot army etc is or were an elite army. Where you dont buy lot of cheap fodder and effective units with their logic of redundancy and effectiveness. Of course army with more number of units is more "competiteve", cause its way more reliable, you lost one thing you have 2 more etc.

Elite armies arent popular because they dont forgive mistakes. DE army is not Elite army and its ok.

I will compare to Wyches, because they fulfill the same role and purpose and have similar stats.  The Harlequins cost more, have less wounds and the only GW would think a 5+ save is worth anything.  Once/if they get into combat, the Wyches are more survivable, and through sheer # of attacks, they end up being the same combat wise due to decent drugs.  Hit and Run is a death sentence and the only way Harlequins outshine Wyches is through more bodies (+cost) and more upgrades (+cost).  Comparing them to 5th means jack crap to me, that was 2 editions ago and they were using outdated rules.  This review was done a few days ago on the current book.

If you think a heavily upgraded large unit of Harlequins are viable in a competitive setting then I don't think we have much more to discuss.  We'll be in too much disagreement, especially when you think Harlequin "elite" can be used in the same sentence as Paladins, Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grots.  They're expensive yes, but for someone not concerned about stats, you seem so skip out on the fact all of those are horrendously more durable than Harlequins and are not CC-dependent to make their points back.

Please, I'm waiting for the player skill argument that can void all stats.  That argument is beyond desperate and it seems we're moving quickly into that direction.  You're already hot on the tail of "I enjoy the challenge", so I give it another post or two before it actually happens.  I'm willing to bet if you say it enough, the Harlequin stats will suddenly change or their points will go down, because that's the only way they're going to be worth it.

Quote :

I will compare to Wyches, because they fulfill the same role and purpose and have similar stats.

Wyches are S3. How can they fulfill same role? Wyches die to regular troops, they wound them on 4+ or 5+.

Quote :

If you think a heavily upgraded large unit of Harlequins are viable in a competitive setting

Viable...competiteve...so many cliche. If you win you win, if you lost you lost. If you win regulary - you know how to win. No more then that.

Quote :

That argument is beyond desperate

You really think too much of yourself. As if i care to prove something. I dont, whats the point?
And you are overreacting.  You probably the guy who thinks it worth a jack to someone to overargument someone.  Sadly, in the cold modern days nobody gives a damn.

Remember the bad part about the argument is that completely eats the discussion.

News flash: Harlequins die to regular troops, and are weaker defensively compared to Wyches.  95 points for 6 wounds at T3 5++ vs. 100 points for 10 wounds at T3 4++ in close combat.  That's literally elementary math, but hey, let's ignore stats right?

You are trying to prove something admist all this, so don't think I'm alone on this one. You said that Harlequins are competitive, and I'm trying to tell you they're not.  You provided an argument, I provided a counter-argument.  The difference is that your argument relies on me ignoring stats (?!) and relying on player skill.  Both of which are horrendously weak arguing points.

If you truly didn't give a damn, you wouldn't have engaged in the debate in the first place.  I don't think this eats the discussion at all, I think it's even more clear now because it allowed me to explain even more why Harlequins are not competitive.

You can still make the best of it though, by doing something like this:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2015/03/de-solving-harlequin-problem.html

It helps, but not as much as I would like.

Mushkilla wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

Massaen wrote:

Witch fires have always required a to hit roll as they are a shooting attack

Unless the power tells you how to resolve it otherwise, which Shriek does.

The rule book explicitly states that witchfire powers must roll to hit, nowhere to my knowledge does it mention "unless the power tells you ho to resolve it otherwise".

40k rule book wrote:

Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

Psychic shriek is a witchfire and is not a blast or template, so therefore must roll to hit.

That's actually incorrect. Psychic shriek and the similar Tyranids power are both nova witchfire spells. In the rules for nova it is explicitly stated that you do not roll to hit

Quote :

News flash: Harlequins die to regular troops, and are weaker defensively compared to Wyches.  95 points for 6 wounds at T3 5++ vs. 100 points for 10 wounds at T3 4++ in close combat.  That's literally elementary math, but hey, let's ignore stats right?

Okay, thats just freaking awesome.

Tell me please how do you compare units:
Just how exactly can they serve same role? Away with points, just what units do.

1) 10 S6 AP 2 Atacks, hitting on 3+
    30 S4 AP-  Atacks, hitting on 3+

2) 30 or so S3 Atacks, hitting on 4+

I dont count Hekatrix or Troup Master, you could but it doesnt change much. Is it not quite obvious that you can atack more targets with first? MCs, Terminators, hordes, AV10 vehicles, marines? You take Wyches on same points you cant quite atack those targets sucesfully.

Hordes you will lose combat result
MCs - you need agoniser
Terminators - nope
AV10 - well you have those cool S4 Plasma Grenades and 1 Haywire best case
Marines - you will probably lose combat result

Quote :

95 points for 6 wounds at T3 5++ vs. 100 points for 10 wounds at T3 4++ in close combat.  That's literally elementary math, but hey, let's ignore stats right?

Since when do you count high iniative close combat units in wounds? You count them in what they cause when they charge in. And 20 Wyches wont do what 10 Harlies do.

Leninade wrote:

Mushkilla wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

Massaen wrote:

Witch fires have always required a to hit roll as they are a shooting attack

Unless the power tells you how to resolve it otherwise, which Shriek does.

The rule book explicitly states that witchfire powers must roll to hit, nowhere to my knowledge does it mention "unless the power tells you ho to resolve it otherwise".

40k rule book wrote:

Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit automatically.

Psychic shriek is a witchfire and is not a blast or template, so therefore must roll to hit.

That's actually incorrect. Psychic shriek and the similar Tyranids power are both nova witchfire spells. In the rules for nova it is explicitly stated that you do not roll to hit

I believe you are thinking of Psychic Scream which is a Tyranid power (which harlequins don't have access to). The discussion in this thread was about Psychic Shriek the primaris of the Telepathy discipline, which is not a Nova power.

40k rule book wrote:

Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of 18". Roll 3D6 and subtract the target’s Leadership – the target unit suffers a number of Wounds equal to the result. Armour and cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds caused by Psychic Shriek.

So as per the witchfire rules it has to roll to hit.

Hope that helps.

Everything people have been saying about net competitive lists was tossed out on its head with the finish at LVO. Simply crushing numbers isn't going to give you a solid idea of how an army will do.

Play to the mission; can harlies do that? I think absolutely. That being said, allies are a good idea. I actually have one with Farsight allies with suits and a riptide. Another has a corpse claw. A third has a couple of wraith Knights. If you take the Knights and have a few bike dudes you can use them to eat overwatch. Same thing with the suits. Personally I think this is the thinking man's thinking man army.

Quote :

Tell me please how do you compare units:
Just how exactly can they serve same role? Away with points, just what units do.

Away with the points...
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Draigo, Lv.3 Libby, 10x Paladins with Apoth and 4x Psycannons.  Away with the points, let's compare elite units, you down? That's the level of lunacy I'm seeing here.

Are you sure? I'm at work at the moment so I don't have access to the rulebook, but I could have sworn it was a nova

Hannibal.Lictor wrote:

Everything people have been saying about net competitive lists was tossed out on its head with the finish at LVO. Simply crushing numbers isn't going to give you a solid idea of how an army will do.

Play to the mission; can harlies do that? I think absolutely. That being said, allies are a good idea. I actually have one with Farsight allies with suits and a riptide. Another has a corpse claw. A third has a couple of wraith Knights. If you take the Knights and have a few bike dudes you can use them to eat overwatch. Same thing with the suits. Personally I think this is the thinking man's thinking man army.

Of course it's a thinking man's army, playing Dark Eldar in general is a thinking man's army because you're running around in paper jets with paper troops.  Harlequins are obviously going to be the same because they're just as paper.

The only difference between the two is that Harlequins are more expensive per model, but for more or less the same degree of firepower from ranged, but a lot better in CC but at a COST.

Anyone who doesn't care for cost haven't played this game on a high enough level, honestly.  This game, as much as it is a hobby, is a game about points.  That's the only god damn thing you can control because the rest is up to dice.  That's why point cost to battlefield application/effectiveness is such a huge factor when building a competitive army.

I can capture points just fine with my pure Dark Eldar army, but I do so with my face in the mud because there's just sooooo much shooting this edition and even more Ignore Cover.  There are tons of high-volume, mid-range shots coming down on you and that's just one of the concepts that people have to accept.  Assault is dangerous in this edition, because of many, many reasons outside of Overwatch.  Sure, losing a few models to lucky OW sucks, but killing a target that may/may not be worth killing and then losing the victorious unit in a hailstorm of firepower is just as bad.  It just happens that killing T3/5++ is a lot easier than MEQ and above, so when assault is measured, the unit's survivability is just as important outside of combat than it is during.

If anything, a fully upgraded squad of Harlequins inflicts more danger to itself being able to crap on most MEQ it touches in close combat the turn it charges. That just means its going to get shot to crap on the opponent's turn and it has no way to recover from that.

It appears I was mistaken about shriek being a nova, my apologies everyone

Hero, I have played some pretty tight players. Trust me I know what competitive play is. I think that with the right allies (straight quins isn't going to four. On that we are agreed) these guys are going to be pretty gnarly

Hannibal.Lictor wrote:

Hero, I have played some pretty tight players. Trust me I know what competitive play is. I think that with the right allies (straight quins isn't going to four. On that we are agreed) these guys are going to be pretty gnarly

Which allies are those?  Eldar?  You mentioned Tau?

It's pairing like those that I wonder if they're better off taking more of their own units (in the case of Eldar), or take stronger allies (in the case of Tau).

Long time lurker, first time posting so go easy on me.

It's probably worth me admitting up front that I've had a large contingent of harlequins since 4th ed so I'm trying not to let the rose tinted glasses colour my view too much.

I have read your review, the follow up and also some of the posts before the harlequin codex review so my thoughts aren't a kneejerk reaction. I think you have some valid points regarding the deficiencies in the army, both in generalities; t3 models with a 5++ tending towards the extreme end of fragility, and in specifics; the codex formations are convoluted to say the least.

However, I find it quite difficult to reconcile how the author of the opening paragraph of DE: A response to the spoiler army can distill the strengths of the Harlequin army down to some strength 6 shooting. Personally I find it quite impressive how much flexibility the codex writers have managed to include in so few units, I also very much disagree that the troupes are a tax for the other units they may have returned to being one of the most dangerous assault units in the game.

To explain my reasoning let's look at the unique properties this unit has at the moment that go some ways towards balancing their fragile nature. Firstly unlike any other unit in the game they completely ignore cover when they move, including in the assault phase allowing them to charge from cover (and into cover) they ignore everything that is detrimental about terrain and in fact given the right psychic power being cast have a 2+ cover save against overwatch.
Secondly on the list of unique abilities they can run then charge (from turn 2), with fleet this makes them more consistent when committing to assault. Now nothing accounts for those days that you roll ones for run moves or double ones for charges and that will happen but over the course of many games with average dice this squad has not only a longer potential charge range threat than other assault units but also has fleet to make it more consistent and as mentioned previously cares not about intervening terrain, given their transport has a 24" range if the transport is close enough to shoot you then you're already under threat of assault.
Thirdly and perhaps most importantly the troupe is perhaps one of a handful of units that can tailor it's multi charge to the weapons in the squad, sending caresses to knock HPs off vehicles, flexibility in characters to issue/accept challenges and weapons that ignore armour/inflict instant death normally striking in totality before the opponent gets to strike back.

Compared to their previous dual codex entry the group unit has gained an awful lot without too much of a price bump.

Skunty wrote:

Personally I find it quite impressive how much flexibility the codex writers have managed to include in so few units

This is the reason I can't wait to use them

If someone manage to find a way to use the Troupe successfully in a competitive environment, maybe our appreciation of the detachment/formations and even the codex will change.

First, welcome to the forum.

Second, assault is dead, especially in competitive play.  Let's look at this logically for a second, and I'll supply the facts.

Let's take your base unit of 95 point Troupes and add some additional bodies, for the sake of pricing, let's make them either 6 or 10.  Let's say 6 if we're planning to put them in Starweavers, and 10 if we're putting them in allied Raiders.  As some of you might agree, Open-Top Raiders are best if we're trying to optimize their chances to assaulting any unit since you can get into assault pretty easily with them.  Nevermind the fact they're riding Raiders, let's say that the Raider gets into combat comfortably thanks to Nightshields and Aethersails.

The 6-man unit costs 110, the 10-man unit costs 170 before upgrades.  What's your favorite loadout for them?  I know some like caress, some like kiss, but let's take kisses on all of them for now because guaranteed S6 AP2 for 5 points sounds like the right way to do it (~20 points per model).  Now, the 6-man squad is at 140, the 10-man is at 220, and that's before the transport option.  Any talk of the Shadowseer will increase the unit's cost by 60+, with 85 being the most likely culprit because you want that Lv.2.  So with the Shadowseer, we're looking at -20, +85, making both squads 205/285 before transports.  Add on the cheapest Raider you can and you're looking at 260/340.

Yes, what you have here is one of the most dangerous assault units in the game, ignoring virtually all forms of terrain, going at I, with a ton of S4, S6 AP2 and the threat of ID, not even counting the pistol fire.  Needless to say that for 20ppm, you get a very good CC unit.

The problem is, and always will be, the fact that you're paying a premium for a CC unit in 7th Ed., seconded by the fact they're T3 5++ and have 1W each, reinforced by the fact that what their riding in isn't the most durable of transports.  If you want to take them in a durable transport like the Wave Serpent, you're add more to the cost and subject yourself to no assault ramps.  If you want to footslog across the map, that's a bit risky and I wouldn't really recommend it, especially when you need your expensive dudes to reach combat.  Unfortunately, as most DE players will tell you now, this edition is very unfair for fragile units riding in any transport.  It blows up, S4 for everyone inside, no more open-top protection, and T3 dudes inside with 5++ saves are going to feel the hurt real bad.  Both transports, the Starweaver and the Raider are AV10 paper planes with 2/3 HP.  The chances of the blowing up are pretty high, especially with the type of firepower that's hanging out out there on the battlefield.  Then you add in enemy psychic powers, overwatch, bad luck, killing a unit and then getting shot to death, there's just too many factors that points against the need for assault.

Let's look at the competitive lists that you see on the battlefield these days:
Adamantium Lance - Trio Imperial Knights
Tyranid FMC - 5x Dakka Flyrants
Chaos Flying Circus - Flying Demon Princes with Biomancy
Mechdar - Wave Serpent spam with or without Wraithknights
IG Leafblowers - Standard IG carpark with or without allies
Tau Leafblowers - Riptides, Broadsides behind ADL
Deathstars - Draigo with Centurians, WWP Fortune Wraithguard
Tyranid Assassins - Built to overwhelm Serpent spam
Eldar Lynx - Designed to destroy Invisibility Deathstars with Pulsars
Necron Decurion - They don't die, you die instead

What do a lot of these lists have in common?  Very shooty and durability.  If not that, then a lot of gimmicky mechanics like warp charge Iron Arm spam, D-Weapons, or beat-the-meta style lists like Lictor spam.

There are more lists out there, but this is the typical of what you see in competitive play.  If you read my latest article, I talk about how the Harlequin dex with S6 shooting will change the DE meta, but that's only because it's shorter range than poison and can actually threaten vehicles and throw out out unpredictable AP2 grounding tests.  Vs. the majority of these lists, Poison is better because it scales better vs. higher T targets.  Against anything with Mech, Decurion, and Deathstars, S6 shooting will do better.  Vs. everything else, Poison should be better.  Vs. Tyranids, I think it's a mix, but the Solitare is actually amazing vs. Deathleaper and his Lictor brood, but you're missing out on Poison vs. Tyranids (which is just sad).

All I'm saying, or rather, what I have been trying to say many many times now, is that Harlequins are expensive.  They're expensive, fragile, subject to a lot of battlefield disasters, and are primarily an assault unit.  All of these work against them in a competitive environment in this edition, and if the design of the army is to be that premium assault army, then that's just too bad.  If this book came out in 4th, everyone would cry OP, and honestly, I would love to see assault go back to what it was.  Not every book can be winners throughout the editions, but it is what it is and I'm just going to have to live with it.  I mean, for christ sakes I play DE.

PS - I'm not out there to crush dreams or anything, I'm literally placing an order for some Harlequin stuff + the Solitare right now. Even if I don't think the army will be super competitive, I'm still going to enjoy playing them.

Lets talk about the solitaire, i consider it the second worst thing in the codex other than the shadowseer. It can throw 100 hundred attacks for all i care but only ignoring armor on 6s still makes him bad, if he could take the storied sword that would be another story.

Grimcrimm wrote:

Lets talk about the solitaire, i consider it the second worst thing in the codex other than the shadowseer. It can throw 100 hundred attacks for all i care but only ignoring armor on 6s still makes him bad, if he could take the storied sword that would be another story.

He's definitely not the worst thing in the book, but he's not the greatest either.  In fact, I'm going to go out of my way and take one in my next game at the expense of 2x Starweavers (or 12 S6 shots).

I think it's more of a disappointment for a lot of people since the only thing guaranteed from the guy is a single S6 AP2 attack which might miss or not wound.  The rest is hold your breath for 6s for Caress.  He has 8 attacks on the charge and once a game he can Blitz for 12 attacks on the charge.  I think the most important thing here is that he has a very solid threat range and ignores all terrain.  His small footprint also allows him to hide behind/around pretty much everything, and he should tie up and kill dev squads by himself.

While the Heroes' Path looks to be a pretty solid buff for the Solitare, the standard Rising Cresendo isn't too bad either.  His average threat range is ~22.5" on average dice and he gets re-rolls from Fleet.  I know he scares Deathleaper and his Lictors into oblivion, but the second he's exposed he's just going to get lit up by shooting and die horrendously.

Don't bother giving him anything else except for maybe a Haywire Grenade, and maybe have him try and tank a Knight Paladin to death for a good laugh.  That would be the Harlequin way.

Post:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2015/03/de-trying-out-solatire.html

Harlequins have some benefits in the matchups you've suggested:

Adamantium Lance - Trio Imperial Knights : Haywire or lance available on everything but the dedicated transports, invun saves on everything negating some of the shooting and superior maneuverability to play to the objectives.
Tyranid FMC - 5x Dakka Flyrants : Tough match up lack of AA is a problem.
Chaos Flying Circus - Flying Demon Princes with Biomancy : Again dealing with flyers is a problem.
Mechdar - Wave Serpent spam with or without Wraithknights : I disagree with your assessment that wraithknights are a problem, all the S6 shooting has bladestorm, when we wound them we ignore the base armour save.
IG Leafblowers - Standard IG carpark with or without allies: Haywire, caresses and invun saves make this a little less daunting.
Tau Leafblowers - Riptides, Broadsides behind ADL: As mentioned upthread broadsides and riptides will hate deathjesters deploying deep risks running off the table deploying advanced risks being assaulted.
Deathstars - Draigo with Centurians, WWP Fortune Wraithguard : S6 ap 2 in abundance, much like the tau these guys have a tough job deciding target priority against an army that wants to be close to bunched up units.
Tyranid Assassins - Built to overwhelm Serpent spam: Another army that wants to be close in to be effective, if the LVO list is anything to go by then this might be the one time the voidweaver earns a place with it's split firing weapons.
Eldar Lynx - Designed to destroy Invisibility Deathstars with Pulsars: Sonic lance would be scarier, haywire and volume of S6 should put the hurt on AV11.
Necron Decurion - They don't die, you die instead: Another tough matchup, but I think Necrons are going to be a tough match regardless with T5 wraiths and the change to gauss.

I'm not saying that Harlequins are going to rule the tournament scene or that any of these matchups are cut and dried in favour of the Harlequin side but Harlequins have a number of facets that help level the playing field somewhat against some of these diehard competative lists.

If you regard assault as dead then Troupes are purely a tax, and an expensive one at that. If you just want to get some S6 shooting into a DE army then surely you would be better served just taking Eldar allies and ignoring the Harlequins completely? If you ignore the transport capacity of the Starweaver then it's really not much better than a twin-cannon Vyper and it's vastly inferior to the Wave Serpent (what isn't?).

I will also point out the Lynx is terrible vs invisible Death Stars as it can't target the death star with this power active!