Dark Eldar, is there a point playing without formations?

Hi there!

It´s been a while, since posting, but here´s a thing a ran in to today.

I had couple of games with my friend (plays BA) with my Dark Eldar and i decided to use an old list (there´s like dozens of my lists lying around our FLGC´s shelves), which carries only the Dark Artisan -formation. I normally play with Grotesquerie too and Scalpel Squadron sometimes...i got served twice, but the later was also a bit due to Maelstrom going his way and saves not in my ...
It seems, that the punch is not enough with FOC -based list with only one formation. Grots did alright, but without the buffs from the formation, they are more vulnerable. If i played without ANY formations, Sternguard and such in pods, would eradicate all Talos/Cronos with nasty shots...

My point being :

It gets kinda boring, having to play with : Dark Artisan and Grotesquerie AT LEAST, if, you want to maximize your effectiveness. And if you want to bring bikes, they need a babysitter --> Farseer with Shard (not sure after saturday if this works anymore... ) and some troops with him...

But lets keep this pure DE...IMHO, it seems, that i´m stuck with the basic build of two formations and bounce the necessary FOC around it, switching Scourges, Reavers, Razorwings and sometimes bringing Incubi, just for their 3+ ability to stay alive longer than Warriors fe. And Wyches are a NO-NO (there´s money well spent) due to flamers and Hellions are just, well, useless now-a-dayz...

Have you had decent experiences JUST with FOC? Or are you too stuck in the wonderland of "Yougotstohaveformations"?

- Lost Vyper

I play without any formation. My list is a mix of venom/kabalite ravagers, Razowing, Reavers with some allied Eldar. I'm having a lot of success on at my FLGS (against Necron with Orikanstar most notably). So no, you don't need formations.

I play a lance heavy army list with ravagers, gunboats, blaster born, and razorwing. I do OK, win the majority of my games. I like the speed and consistency of my army. Now, do I wish it had some more durability?or some perks from a formation? Yeah, but its still fun

I got only one Ravager and he is almost always on. Raiders have lances ALWAYS and Warriors roll with a blaster. I can switch a bit and get a Trueborn blasterboat and roll with two Razorwings too...Does anyone use Realspace Raiders? I don´t see the point...

That's the detachment correct? You take it so unlock 6 fast attack slots (and let's face it, it's where our best units are).

If you're talking about the formation... it would be good if it were not for the hellion tax.

Lost Vyper wrote:

But lets keep this pure DE...

Deamon wrote:

...with some allied Eldar.

You are out...

Unlike other armies, I think something to keep in mind is that the formations from the coven supplement are REALLY good for the most part compared to the formations from other books. Not only that but they are obtainable from a purchasing perspective and also point cost perspective. While CTC is ~600-700pts and is typical compared to formations from other codices, a lot of the rest can be closer to 300pts which can be plugged in pretty easily.

I've ran straight RSR and CAD and still do well as pure DE. I tend to use the CAD more when I also use a formation; however, it can still work well depending on the type of game. If I'm going to a tournament with more eternal war style missions, CAD is really good for me since a number of armies don't have objective secure any more. Even in malestrom missions it's decent but having a few extra units for mobility is where RSR wins out. I've even had some luck recently using Wyches instead of warriors or wracks but that's for a different thread since how I use them are different than I did in previous codices.

I find Realspace Raiders Detachment just fine. My usual list is an MSU iteration of venomspam and I feel that with the release of our Craftworld cousins, my build of choice is going to become stronger, as most opponents will be more careful with fielding deathstars and spamming knights.

I beat up an Iyanden army. He was using the last codex. He gave me a good fight in the end, but it was too late on that Maelstrom mission. I used a standard army with MSU and warriors in venom and two scourges. This style of army has many troops to score multiple points in one round and I never want to let go of objective secure.

CptMetal wrote:

I beat up an Iyanden army. He was using the last codex. He gave me a good fight in the end, but it was too late on that Maelstrom mission. I used a standard army with MSU and warriors in venom and two scourges. This style of army has many troops to score multiple points in one round and I never want to let go of objective secure.

I don't see much merit in objective secured for DE army. We're too fragile to really benefit from this rule and we can field tons of units with MSU approach. 22 scoring units in a 1500p game, anyone?

So it's easy to sacrifice one unit to get that point the enemy has under control with his super über big unit.... without objective secure. I'll gladly throw five warriors away to get that victory point. The venom can boost Away after dropping them.

CptMetal wrote:

So it's easy to sacrifice one unit to get that point the enemy has under control with his super über big unit.... without objective secure. I'll gladly throw five warriors away to get that victory point. The venom can boost Away after dropping them.

If I run a CAD for objective secure, this is the tactic I use. It's rarely needed but throwing 5 warriors (or 5 wyches who tend to survive a bit better in cc) at a camping unit just to deny them a point is well worth it. There's a big difference between contesting an objective and removing a unit from one.

CptMetal wrote:

So it's easy to sacrifice one unit to get that point the enemy has under control with his super über big unit.... without objective secure. I'll gladly throw five warriors away to get that victory point. The venom can boost Away after dropping them.

Actually... you can't turbo-boost if warrior disembarked.

Deamon wrote:

CptMetal wrote:

So it's easy to sacrifice one unit to get that point the enemy has under control with his super über big unit.... without objective secure. I'll gladly throw five warriors away to get that victory point. The venom can boost Away after dropping them.

Actually... you can't turbo-boost if warrior disembarked.

True but you can disembark and then move a transport the full 12" instead of just 6". So not as ideal as a turbo boost but still allows you to split a couple units up well enough.

Formations not required. The Realspace Raider, Combined Arms Detachment, and Covenite Coterie Detachments are sufficient.

That being said, I LOVE formations anyway.

DE is a spam army. Even if you run 6 units of scourges with blasters, it's spam "Quantity has a quality all of it's own." -Stalin. RRD is a great place to start 6 venoms in troops and then like 4-6 flyers or scourges or Reavers and then max HS with ravagers. We have the uncanny ability to bring an ungodly amount of shots that in itself is synergy.

I don't think Formations are in any way necessary, though they do tend to be the best way of running Coven units (and a way to avoid the Haemonculus-tax).

With regard to formations, the main problem I have is that they're a lot of points for very few models. And, at that, models with numerous hard-counters. e.g. much as I want to like Grotesques, I just see far too much stuff that removes them without issue - Force Weapons, Vindicators, more Force Weapons, Dreadknights, S10 Power Fists/Klaws on various models, etc. And, with only FNP to protect them, even basic firearms can deplete there numbers.

Dark Artisan is a bit more resilient, but then you really don't want to run into Centurions, and Force Weapons will still ruin your day. I guess it just concerns me when my 400pt unit can be killed in one turn with no issue.

That aside, Dark Artisan is quite good at protecting my Warlord (though I've still lost him a couple of times), though it's damage output (or lack thereof) is a concern when it costs so many points. It's abysmal speed is also a concern.

As it stands, I tend to use coven formations simply because I like coven units - rather than because of their effectiveness.

That being said, know what formation I've had the most success with? Covenite Fleshcorps. Yep, you read that right. I'm not sure I've ever lost a game using this formation. Possibly because it fits better with the MSU DE detachment I support it with. Or, perhaps because it simply has more options. Against most armies, the Wracks can plink away with Osseffactors. Against something lie Tau, they're a credible melee threat and should be able to at least tie up most units.

TL:DR I don't think any of our current Formations are necessary for us to compete. Allies on the other hand...

I don't like needing the formations and fancy detachments, either. I do, however, take both or either the DA or Grotesquerie in almost every game, but it's mainly because they are some of my favorite models in our army's range. Yeah, I could take them separately in the CCD, RSR, or CAD, but why would I when they get such good bonuses from the formations Especially the WWPing Cronos/Talos.

There are exactly 2 formations worth noticing, Dark Artisan and Grotesquery.

All the rest is mediocre or cost arm and a leg. And you can definately play without them.

Scalpel Squadron can be pretty useful too.

Corpse Thief. while pricey can work pretty well... until you run into D-spamming eldars.

Just got the Eldar codex today. It´s good...damn good...

Quote :

Just got the Eldar codex today. It´s good...damn good...

Hey Vyper, is there a way to use Rangers as a formation? With Illic maybe.

I play coven without any formations as I find formations are often too restrictive and detract from my goal/list design objectives too much.

Mushkilla wrote:

I play coven without any formations as I find formations are often too restrictive and detract from my goal/list design objectives too much.

I think it just depends on what you want to use and what you can find a use for.

It's having to take 2 Haemonculi that kills the Covenite detachment for me (well, that and Wracks not being troops). Much as I want to like Haemonculi, they just feel really overcosted for what they bring and a second one is always dead-weight in my army (hell, if I was less flavour-inclined, I probably wouldn't bother with the first one).

However, I know you have an army which uses both haemonculi as WWP-caddies. So, it just depends what you want/need, I guess.

Out of interest though, Mush, what's your opinion on haemonculi in general?

The Shredder wrote:

Out of interest though, Mush, what's your opinion on haemonculi in general?

A borderline tax that gives you WWP,+1 Power From pain, I5 for sweeping advance, LD9 (against psychic powers that affect leadership), and the ability to bounce wounds with look out sir. Only really worth it if you can use him to buff as many grotesques as possible (ideally 10). Outside of that he's garbage.