Soulfright

I'm probably going to be told that I'm wrong, but a player's gotta try.

Soulfright: At the end of the Shooting phase, a unit that has suffered one or more hits from a weapon with this special rule in that phase must make a Leadership test.

I interpret "suffer one or more hits from a weapon" as the Grenades Blast radius having the potential to hit more than one model.

I interpret "a weapon" as being aimed at a single Grenade Launcher, otherwise it would have said "weapons".

So to me, what I read, is that a unit which has suffered multiple hits from a Grenade Launcher's Blast (and not multiple grenade launchers blasts, otherwise it would say "weapons" instead of "a weapon".) must take a Leadership test.

Nowhere does it say that when this same unit is hit again by another Grenade it needs not take another Leadership test.

I would not have doubted how this rule should be played if it were written like this:

Soulfright: At the end of the Shooting phase, a unit that has suffered one or more hits from weapons with this special rule in that phase must take a total of one Leadership test.

The only reason I doubt is because others tend to disagree, which in my humble opinion, is wrong.

So please prove me wrong with some clear reasoning or say im right.

My interpretation is they only roll one leadership check,  because soulfright says if a unit suffers one or more hits from a weapon with this rule, roll leadership. Multiple phantasms all have the soulfright rule, so while they all generate hits, soulfright only applies once.

Also: can you not use dark red? It's hard to read.

The PayneTrayn wrote:

My interpretation is they only roll one leadership check,  because soulfright says if a unit suffers one or more hits from a weapon with this rule, roll leadership. Multiple phantasms all have the soulfright rule, so while they all generate hits, soulfright only applies once.

Also: can you not use dark red? It's hard to read.

Hehe, I used red first, but got the mention that this color is reserved for moderators, so I switched it to dark red, because it's the color of murder! But I guess it's more important to read, so I changed it

Anyway, I'm still not convinced, sorry, as it sais to make a leadership test after it had suffered one or more hits from a weapon (aka multiple hits from 1 blast, coming from 1 grenade). Not saying anything about negating the need to make multiple leadership test when suffering one or more hits from multiple weapons.

If I fire a single TGL at a unit and it hits, the unit has suffered one or more hits from a weapon with this special rule. If I fire 10 TGL's at a unit and they all hit, the unit has still suffered one or more hits from a weapon with this special rule. There is no difference. Only a single Ld test is taken, regardless of how many hits have been scored.

ok so reading your version, soulfright would only apply if a unit suffers hits from more than one weapon - by specifying weapons (plural) you are requiring that more than one weapon must have fulfilled the condition of hitting the unit before the rule can apply.

The rule is pretty clear in my view, 'a' (singular) leadership test is made at the end of the phase (ie after all weapons have shot).

The reference in the rule to 'a weapon' does not relate the leadership test to the weapon, it simply means that in order for the soulfright rule to apply you have to have been hit by a weapon with that rule. It's similar to strikedown, or the burning blade, you don't take a test per instance of the rule applying, it's one test if the condition that invokes the rule is met.

Let's look at some examples.

1. A unit gets one model hit by a phantasm grenade launcher. Does it meet the conditions of the rule?

It has suffered one hit from a weapon with the rule. So yes, it does, therefore at the end of the shooting phase it makes a single leadership test.

2. A unit gets hit by a phantasm grenade launcher and the blast template covers three models.

It has suffered three hits from a weapon with the rule. So again, it meets the conditions and therefore takes a leadership test at the end of the phase.

3. A unit gets hit by phantasm grenade launchers from two separate units, covering three models in total (though the actual number is irrelevant).

Yes, once again it meets the tests, but here's where your point (which I don't agree with your interpretation) matters.

The unit has suffered one or more hits by a weapon with the soulfright rule. It has in fact suffered hits from two weapons with the soulfright rule. The fact that it has been hit by two weapons however does not cancel out the fact that it has been hit by a weapon and therefore meets the only condition required for the rule to apply.

For clarity therefore

The rule doesn't ever state that you take more than a single leadership test. The requirement that the leadership test is taken at the end of the phase is the crucial part. Similar to morale checks, which are also taken in the shoting phase after all shooting has been concluded, you take a leadership test, not a leadership test for each weapon with the soulfright rule that scored hits against the unit.

Count Adhemar wrote:

If I fire a single TGL at a unit and it hits, the unit has suffered one or more hits from a weapon with this special rule. If I fire 10 TGL's at a unit and they all hit, the unit has still suffered one or more hits from a weapon with this special rule. There is no difference. Only a single Ld test is taken, regardless of how many hits have been scored.

I see what you did there, but that still does not negate the fact that there is nothing which completely rules out that I'm wrong, because I can just as will interpret it in the way I just described it above.

The unit suffers a hit or hits from "a weapon" and must take a leadership test.
The leadership test must always be taken after the hit from "a weapon" at the end of a shooting phase.

As is with Freakish Spectacle, it doesn't say it cannot stack.

Both weapons are indeed "a weapon", but it should have said "weapons" in that regard.

A weapon is not the same as Each weapon.  At the end of the phase, was the unit hit by a weapon with soulfright? No, no test.  Yes, 1 test.  

Soulfright is a special ability that's triggered at the end of the phase and not based a per weapon.  If "a weapon" was replaced with "this weapon", then an argument for multiple tests could be made, but as written, it is just "a weapon" w/o caring which weapon nor how many weapons.


Freakish Spectacle is different in that it's scoped to units within each formation as it states "this formation or detachment" and not "a formation or detachment with this rule". The "this" qualifies it to each individual. "A" generalize to where it doesn't matter about quantity.

Sorry, but regardless of how you spin the story, I still find my viewpoint more than valid.

The fact remains that GW has once again used a specific type of wording which can be interpreted more than one way.

If that were not the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

It doesn't differ from Freakish Spectacle as there are numerous players that disagree with that rule stacking either.

So it somehow comes down to what you deem logical vs what I deem logical as clearly GW isn't capable of creating clear rules.

omkara wrote:

The fact remains that GW has once again used a specific type of wording which can be interpreted more than one way.

You seem to be the only one interpreting it differently than what it states based on common English grammar and the timing of the game.

If anything, GW should stop pairing phase-specific rules to weapons.

The me it's clear that a unit cannot be affected by more than 1 Soulfright effect per turn no matter the numbers of weapons that fired at it. Does it suck? Yes, but it seems obvious to me that's what they intended.

Unholyllama wrote:

omkara wrote:

The fact remains that GW has once again used a specific type of wording which can be interpreted more than one way.

You seem to be the only one interpreting it differently than what it states based on common English grammar and the timing of the game.

If anything, GW should stop pairing phase-specific rules to weapons.

Good, well im from the Netherlands so its not my native tongue. My English is adequate enough to know when certain rules could have been described in such a manner that it's no longer open to different forms of interpretation.

"At the end of the Shooting phase, a unit that has suffered one or more hits from a weapon or weapons with this special rule in that phase must make a single Leadership test."

And that's how you write a rule.

Sorry, but the rule is clear to me. In the German codex they even talk about 'weapons'. So there is nothing to debate about. I would prefer if you'd be correct, but you aren't...

CptMetal wrote:

Sorry, but the rule is clear to me. In the German codex they even talk about 'weapons'. So there is nothing to debate about. I would prefer if you'd be correct, but you aren't...

How is the fact that in the German codex it does mention "weapons" and not in the English version, a reason for there not to be a debate about it; If anything, this only emphasis the fact that GW doesn't know how to properly describe a rule as I did a lot better in my previous post.

"At the end of the Shooting phase, a unit that has suffered one or more hits from a weapon or weapons with this special rule in that phase must make a single Leadership test."

----

Anyway, thank you all for replying. I'm an extremely stubborn person once I've made my mind up, but I`ll give you all the benefit of my logical doubt since it's not game breaking for me if I can't toss 2 grenades on top of 1 unit. Hell, I'm mostly playing against ATSKNF armies anyway :')

I'm sorry, but that sounds like WAAC gaming for me. I wouldn't play games against you.

So your argument, if I am understanding, is that because weapon is not plural, this means that each time they get hit by a separate weapon with "Soulfright", you have you do an additional leadership test?

Allow me to try and clarify on why what Count A said is correct. Weapon is being used as a generalize term. In the term "one or more hits" the word "hits" stands in for all hits from any weapon system that may in fact hit the unit with this rule. A way to look at it is, not that you did multiple hits with numerous weapon systems, but that you manage to hit the unit with Soulfright. Regardless of how many times you shot Soulfright and hit, you hit the unit with Soulfright. Not Soulfrights, not Soulfright A and Soulfright B, but Soulfright, singular. Thus, since you hit with Soulfright only one leadership test is taken. Why? Because you hit with Soulfright not Soulfrights.

Not insulting you, just trying to basically show the thought process of the rule and how to follow it. This is why is was written like this. If they added the (s) to weapon, then that would mean you take multiple leadership tests, because you would have hit with numerous Soulfrights.

If this is confusing I understand, I am trying to write logically with 4 hours of sleep coming off a VERY long shift.

CptMetal wrote:

I'm sorry, but that sounds like WAAC gaming for me. I wouldn't play games against you.

Allright, I'm not sure how this should affect me since A) we don't know each other and B) we`ll probably never meet, but C) how would you even know if I'm a WAAC player at all? If you're that presumptious perhaps I wouldn't want to play against you; thought of that?

Anyway, I'm gathering a Haemonculus Coven ONLY army. Yeah that's the 100% recipe for a WAAC player all right, oh wait, no its not. I'd be playing Tau or Eldar, which I don't.

JackKnife01 wrote:

Not insulting you, just trying to basically show the thought process of the rule and how to follow it. This is why is was written like this. If they added the (s) to weapon, then that would mean you take multiple leadership tests, because you would have hit with numerous Soulfrights.

If this is confusing I understand, I am trying to write logically with 4 hours of sleep coming off a VERY long shift.

Jack, thank you for trying to explain it again, but truth be told, from the first time that the Count explained it I already understood the rule, it's just that I don't agree with them

As a simple example one could use "drugs". The more drugs you take, the more wasted you get. It's science

Assuming that soulfright is based on some extreme mind altering fear inducing form of drug, it would stand reasonable that the more soulfright drugs you inhale, the more scared you become and should be even more susceptible to death by fear.

But eitherway, I get the rule, I just don't agree with it. I won't force other players to follow my version of the rule, because it's clear that despite how I tried to twist the words into being more in line with my logic, the words sadly are clear and it's just one test per unit, per phase, end of story.

Why do people like you insist that in order to play warhammer properlpy, you need a professor degree in Linguistics?

It's a WAAC player thing I guess.

No, I'm serious. The evidence that you're the ONLY one who, even when presented with arguments for and against, still believe that your explanation is the correct one, but still insists that everyone else is reading it wrong.
Why isn't it possible that just maybe it isn't literally everyone else who Read it wrong?

Sigmaril wrote:

No, I'm serious. The evidence that you're the ONLY one who, even when presented with arguments for and against, still believe that your explanation is the correct one, but still insists that everyone else is reading it wrong.
Why isn't it possible that just maybe it isn't literally everyone else who Read it wrong?

omkara wrote:

I already understood the rule, it's just that I don't agree with them

As a simple example one could use "drugs". The more drugs you take, the more wasted you get. It's science

Assuming that soulfright is based on some extreme mind altering fear inducing form of drug, it would stand reasonable that the more soulfright drugs you inhale, the more scared you become and should be even more susceptible to death by fear.

But eitherway, I get the rule, I just don't agree with it. I won't force other players to follow my version of the rule, because it's clear that despite how I tried to twist the words into being more in line with my logic, the words sadly are clear and it's just one test per unit, per phase, end of story.

A quote from what I said earlier, yet you insist on assuming that I believe I'm correct when I've clearly already admitted that, with regards to the strict illogical rules, I'm wrong.

The butthurt image was for the other guy that keeps implying that I'm a WAAC player

My apologies. I missed that last bit.

That's okay, I can be a stubborn annoying person at times, so I can understand the hostility