Movement of Skimmers and/or Jetbikes

Played a game tonight against Marines.

I went to move a Raider 12" (movement phase) over a piece of impassable terrain as though I were to fly over it, that was roughly 6" high to place it on the other side and he stopped me and said that I had to move up to the terrain, measure the height of it, then measure the distance across the top of it, then measure down the other side.  That's how far I can move.  He went on to tell me that "diagonal movement" has been removed from the rule book.  It was last in 5th ed.  This affects everything, including flyers !!!!!

Page 21 of the BRB is the only reference I can find.

He's just sent me this too :

A change that might not get much interest but that I found intriguing is that they eliminated the hypotenuse when ascending or descending.  Now you must move TO the base of ALL terrain types, then count the distance up.  This is not just a ruins thing nor a hill thing.  EVERYTHING works like this now.  The change to horizontal coherency (now if a model is within 6 inches above you, your unit is coherent), many arguments will be solved.  Also notice that the example shows that the model is moving UNDERNEATH the floor and THEN up.  That's important.  Obviously you must include this extra base width of movement in order to get up.  Many Walkers and other units with larger bases will have a harder time climbing up.  As for hills, the base width is equally an issue to be cognizant of.  All of this is quite intuitive.  Many players are used to saying "Hey if the edge of my base makes it to that floor up there diagonally, then I'm on it".  Not so, says the 7th Edition rules.  So pay close attention.  No cheap climbing or free inches.  No hypotenuse climbing.

They have also removed the restriction of Bikes and Walkers not being able to climb!!

Not sure how I've missed all this until now.

Is that right ????  If so, this massively restricts Jetbikes, Jump Packs (Scourges) and Skimmer movement .....

The rule book says you move over terrain freely. If your opponent tells you it costs you extra distance, you aren't moving freely.

The to-and-then-up method is described under normal movement, a section prefaced with the disclaimer that certain movement types will move differently (and then mentions jump units specifically).

Page number please? I can't see that anywhere.

Not being funny but where on earth have you been looking if you can't find this?

Under "Bikes & Jetbikes":

Quote :

Jetbikes can move over all other models and terrain freely

Under "Skimmers":

Quote :

Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on
top of either. Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and
Dangerous Terrain tests

In short, your opponent is wrong (and appears to have swallowed a dictionary).

What would be the purpose of Skimmer otherwise? Don't let him trick you! Our speed is one of our key advantages, don't let him take it from you.

Jimsolo wrote:

The to-and-then-up method is described under normal movement, a section prefaced with the disclaimer that certain movement types will move differently (and then mentions jump units specifically).

I meant this bit Count Adhemar.

Hellstrom wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

The to-and-then-up method is described under normal movement, a section prefaced with the disclaimer that certain movement types will move differently (and then mentions jump units specifically).

I meant this bit Count Adhemar.

You can find that on Page 18 - the very first paragraph.
For your opponent, the important bit of info would be that Skimmers are not infantry

Hello one and all,

I am said Marine (Eldar, Guard, ork, DE) player. The question wasn't if skimmer, jumppacks or airpower could cross terrain unhindered. It was how do they do that? Do they just move the full 12 inches through the terrain or do they move up and over (diagonally or climbing). As per book I'd say they just move 12 through ignoring said terrain piece. The problem becomes more of an issue as my friend likes to say you can't move through walls. And while I could find 5th ed rules for changing a level at a diagonal I can't find any in 7th that say you can change level in such a way (for any unit skimmer, jumppack or airpower). I totally agree with the comments about free movement or ignoring terrain. But then I'd also point to the fact bikers or tanks have similar rules for terrain movement and if you house rule those then skimmers would also need some kind of house rule.

Thoughts and ideas welcome as I also make use of skimmers and such in most of the armies I have.

Skimmer ignore terrain. So you just measure the horizontal distance. That's it.

Venyka wrote:

As per book I'd say they just move 12 through ignoring said terrain piece.

That would be correct.

Venyka wrote:

The problem becomes more of an issue as my friend likes to say you can't move through walls.

Well...in the real world this is basically true. That said, there is no actual rule supporting this belief in the game. You can assuredly houserule it though - if you do I'd make allowances for how flyers and skimmers treat movement 'over' walls.

Venyka wrote:

And while I could find 5th ed rules for changing a level at a diagonal I can't find any in 7th that say you can change level in such a way (for any unit skimmer, jumppack or airpower).

It's because they do not suffer movement limitations due to terrain and have an infinitely high free vertical ascent or descent during the course of their horizontal movement.

Venyka wrote:

I totally agree with the comments about free movement or ignoring terrain. But then I'd also point to the fact bikers or tanks have similar rules for terrain movement and if you house rule those then skimmers would also need some kind of house rule.

Neither bikes nor tanks inherently move over terrain for the purpose of movement, so I'm not sure I follow the issue here. Jetbikes and skimmer tanks do, however.

Venyka wrote:

Thoughts and ideas welcome as I also make use of skimmers and such in most of the armies I have.

As well you should, they're awesome.

I think the core issue here is it sounds like your group has instituted a house rule (no movement through walls) - you need to debate how you want to have that house rule affect the models that are capable of flying over said walls. I would suggest making them pay for the vertical movement is a...thing. But do you measure from base or from model? Eh, it seems strange and awkward as a rule to me, but then so does having Space Marines have to file through a door when they have power fists or krak grenades Whatever floats your boat at that stage.

Maybe just house rule that if they end on different levels of a ruin/impassable terrain *then* they need to pay the same vertical movement of an infantry model? I dunno.

The rules support skimmers ignoring all terrain except for the terrain they specifically start on and end on, and then only for dangerous terrain tests. They never need to climb anything and thus do not pay that movement cost.

You move them as if the terrain was simply not there in any way. If the vehicle/bike/whatever begins or ends its movement in terrain, it triggers a dangerous terrain test.

Pretty much, the skimmer flies over the terrain, but is not penalized in any way for vertical movement, only horizontal.

As for the walls, if they are a ruin you can certainly move through them. If they are part of an intact building, not so much. (except skimmers/bikes as mentioned above)

Hope that helps

*edit- thor types faster than I do...

Page 21 would have the operative rules for walking through walls, by the way. It occurs to me that reference would be asked for.

Skulnbonz wrote:

*edit- thor types faster than I do...

That or I don't get out much

Thanks people I think that we need to sit down as a group and decide what to do about walls. And if they are all ruled as impassable terrain then I'd say skimmers etc would still move flat across the table ignoring them. But then I'd say some mechanic needs to be in place for normal units else the table could be a maze of impassable walls that only certain units could move through. The walls in question are solid (no doors or windows) 8 inch tall by 24 inch long. But would apply to any ruins also.

I would suggest that the easy solution is to just play the rules as written [/troll]

If you really want to institute walls as impassable that's pretty doable (did it in Necromunda all the time, natch) but I will point out at that stage you'd need very specific ruins to move up levels in, as you do need to be under the floor you're moving to, and most ruins out there, including GW's, have a dearth of ladders and holes in the floor modeled in the correct places. I would also note that obligating everyone to deal with walls will really annoy and bog down any army choosing to footslog, and those poor bastards hardly need the extra kick in the junk for their army choice.

I think the houserules shouldn't go out of their way to penalize skimmers for their 'movement advantage' dealing with impassable walls - you pay a pretty hefty upgrade cost to get a skimmer compared to a non-skimmer variety, and if you want less impassable terrain on the table just put less out and use other LoS hampering terrain that won't be as big of an issue.

Best of luck with the discussion!

One way to balance the skimmer advantage of moving over impassable terrain is to houserule the dangerous terrain tests so that ground tanks have an easier time navigating ruins and terrain. Make it more dangerous or skimmers to operate there. This way ground tanks are limited in their movement but can stay in cover better and enjoy that advantage easier. Give footsloggers a going to ground advantage in ruins so they're better able to avoid being killed moving through the ruins. Footsloggers would be less about reaching the other army ASAP (a tactic that usually results in death anyway) and more about moving from ruin to ruin ambushing enemy units that come close and penning the enemy into corners of the board as they move up.

If you did that though you might have to houserule the length of games as I'm fairly certain the games would require more turns to resolve. Turns 1 & 2 might be nothing but manoeuvring with turn 3 being the start of any real fighting.

It seems to me the house rule against the walls being impassable is the issue.  The rules only consider walls to be difficult terrain, per the Barricades and Walls sections, as well as the Difficult Terrain section where it references ruins, and "low" walls.  

Since you were referencing older rules, ie 5th edition, page 14 of the difficult terrain rules.  They like to elaborate more then apparently.  

Spoiler:

Walls have only been difficult terrain, as written, however, they still block LOS.