Gladius Captain and it's implication on DE codex

Hello,

This came up in our gaming group yesterday:
Is it ok to upgrade Captain in the new battle comppany (or whatever it is called) to Chaptermaster. The Entry and unit composition is still captain but stattline is a CM. In addition only captain special characters are allowed to fulfil the role of Captain in the formation.

If it is accepted wouldn't it be similar case with our dexes Kabalite raiding party and trueborn. Is there a clear interpretation on this somewhere? I think the intent is clear but again RAW is not.

I'd tend to agree that it's technically still the same unit entry if it weren't for the fact that only named Captains, not Chapter Masters (eg Pedro Kantor), are allowed to be substituted. That seems to speak to the intent of the rule. Barring a FAQ I'd say it's one to discuss with your opponent.

Let's just say, if he's doing it against you, you can do the same regarding true born.

I agree that they are the same entry.
"Captain" is the datasheet and the unit name, with "Chapter Master" being an upgrade to it. The same would be true of Kabalite Warriors and Trueborn.
The other way to look at it is with Sybarites. Tech nically a Sybarite is an upgrade and comes with its own stat-line, buts its still a Kabalite Warrior because its from the Kabalite Warrior datasheet.

I was wondering the same thing. In fact, I posted about it before reading your post here. Had I read this one first I wouldn't have bothered!

I think the upgrade is legit in both cases, but maybe that's just because I'm biased as I want to field Trueborn instead of Warriors.

There's no question that weapon upgrades from the army list entry can be taken, so why not the other upgrades too?

Of course, the (very sensible sounding) counter-argument is that a 'Kabalite Warrior' is not a 'Kabalite Trueborn' because they have different statlines and different options.

Squidmaster wrote:

The other way to look at it is with Sybarites. Tech nically a Sybarite is an upgrade and comes with its own stat-line, buts its still a Kabalite Warrior because its from the Kabalite Warrior datasheet.

I'm of this mind.

Also, if I'm facing a Gladius whether or not it's a Captain or Chapter Master will be drastically far down my list of concerns

I'd rather they clear up the Lysander question, really.

Thor665 wrote:

Squidmaster wrote:

The other way to look at it is with Sybarites. Tech nically a Sybarite is an upgrade and comes with its own stat-line, buts its still a Kabalite Warrior because its from the Kabalite Warrior datasheet.

I'm of this mind.

Also, if I'm facing a Gladius whether or not it's a Captain or Chapter Master will be drastically far down my list of concerns

I'd rather they clear up the Lysander question, really.

What's the Lysander question?

Without going downstairs to dig out my book - the basic issue is that he's listed as an acceptable character in the Gladius but *not* as an acceptable character in the Demi-Company (or vice versa, but I think I'm stating it correctly).

There isn't a clear answer and I doubt there will be any time soon. I say no personally. Otherwise it opens the door for many other shenanigans not the least of which is taking 2 warriors as compulsory then 'upgrading' them to blasterborn or in essence filling compulsory slots with elites. I doubt anyone would be cool with that but its the same concept applied to a different unit.. also read: order of ops arguments floating around the web. So if we were to apply it to gladius I'd expect the same interpretation for my army.

That would be different as you need troops. Those above mentioned formations don't need any particular battlefield roles but codex entries instead.

Any other upgradeable units than Gladius captain and Trueborn in kabalite raiding party?

@Brom
It is clearly stated that the KW change their role to Elite when upgraded to TB. Thus while still being KW, they cannot be in troops slot. All tournament rules I have seen do accept TB as KW for the purpose of KRP as the battlefield role is irrelevant for the formation. And players usually accept that since GW clearly stated that the "Datasheet" structure is the new standard. Similar thing is with the Court. If you accept the datasheet as a governing principle of unit structure, there is no argument IMO.

Gladius specifically states captain in the same way that FOC states troops. Taking a captain to satisfy the compulsory slot then upgrading him to a CM is the same as taking warriors as a compulsory troops choice then upgrading them to trueborn.

Changing their battlefield role is incidental to the argument for such shenanigans.. its not the crux of the matter. Assuming there is an 'order' in which you apply these things IS.

Another somewhat common example would be to take a veteran of a cmd squad, give him a meltagun, THEN make him an apothecary. Its the principal and once the door is opened its wide open. Now for casual play if a kid rolls in with his double mg apoth conversion or fluffy cm led gladius cool lets game. But strictly speaking I believe the answer is no because its open for abuse across the spectrum. One mans interpretation is not the next.

The apothecary thing you're commenting on is like back when people tried to give a Mad Dok a PK. It doesn't work due to the pre-set gear load out. You could theoretically spend the points depending on the wording, but no melts gun Apothecary would result regardless.

Well I always felt like a unit is added to a list AFTER it buys all upgrades and options. Adding it to the list and upgrading after that is just cheesy. :-)

Quote :

The apothecary thing you're commenting on is like back when people tried to give a Mad Dok a PK. It doesn't work due to the pre-set gear load out. You could theoretically spend the points depending on the wording, but no melts gun Apothecary would result regardless.

Quote :

Well I always felt like a unit is added to a list AFTER it buys all upgrades and options. Adding it to the list and upgrading after that is just cheesy. :-)

I agree with you both, but you guys see my point.
I'm not even invested in the unit in question, just saying loose interpretation leads to more and theres enough similarity between one argument and another to make it difficult to distinguish during a debate. Therefore I'm in the no camp.

I am of the yes camp though - an Apothecary weapon load out is not the same as a data sheet entry for a formation.

And amrylist entry si still:

HQ: Captain (90pts), Chaptermaster upgrade (155pts) [255]

Entry is still "Caplain" and that is what is required to fill the slot in the formation.

disclaimer: Points used in this example are not valid for gameplay