Fast but hopefully fun - 1.5k

So i've been out of 40k for a while after getting bored of my orks (a heinous crime after about 8 years at them) and have been avidly playing Fantasy O&G for the last 2 years. I finally caved and decided to start a new 40k army, I plumped for DE as the models are well...fantastic and yeah I'm a bit obsessed by the hellion models...

Baron Sathonyx - 105

10x Hellion
Helliarch w/ Power weapon - 175

10x Hellion
Helliarch W/ Power weapon. - 175

8x Hellion
Helliarch W/Power weapon. -143

10x Scourges - 284
2x Heat Lances
2x Blaster

10x Scourges - 284
2x Heatlances
2x Blaster

Razorwing Jetfighter - 165
Flickerfield
Splinter Cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter - 165
Flickerfield
Splinter Cannon



Comments would be appreciated not sure if i've made any rookie DE mistakes but it seems pretty solid, swift and shooty with the option for combat once stuff has been shot and whittled a lot.

Ardansk wrote:

and yeah I'm a bit obsessed by the hellion models...

Those cool looking models cause me issues every single time a new player crops up. I guess I should be happy they suck in new players but...cripes, I've gotta jot up a "why Hellions fail at life" topic just so I can link it and not have to keep typing it

Don't fret though, I'll let you keep them, I'll just try to point out their flaws so at least you understand what you're doing.

Ardansk wrote:

Baron Sathonyx - 105

Fine, and a good place to start if you're going Hellions.

Ardansk wrote:

10x Hellion
Helliarch w/ Power weapon - 175

10x Hellion
Helliarch W/ Power weapon. - 175

8x Hellion
Helliarch W/Power weapon. -143

Eh...have so many little issues. At least you're using Helliarchs with some way to get through armor, which is a plus. But, let's try to break this down;

You have some glaring holes here. The first is your anti-armor is limited to three guys using Str 3 power weapons...also known as; Space Marines will stick out their manly chests and mock you in manly voices while cowering within their pansie battle armor. You're not going to get to them very quickly, and that means you're taking casualties fairly aggressively.

That leads to the second thought - you only have 3 Troop choices. DE are a bit like Orks, insomuch as their Troop choices should be spammed up a bit. Our Troop choices are good, and are fragile, so we usually bring a fair number of them to offset losses. As a comparison - at 1500 I usually field 5-6 Troop choices. We'll get back to this later...

Another immediate concern - lack of grenades, the squad that Baron S is with will get to attack at initiative, all the rest will suffer assaulting into cover - suffer *a lot* since their only real advantage over other assault units (and non-assault units...) is their Init value.

Also, as noted, Hellions fail at life. Just consider - you're paying out a lot of points for a unit that is basically a weaker Space Marine Scout - and telling everyone it will handle the opposition and be an assault element...yeah...not so much. They're okay versus soft targets, but if any actual assault unit rolls up on them (or is even assaulted by them) expect the Hellions to run around in terror as the assault unit shows them what it actually means to be good in h2h combat. Their "strength" is in shooting, sadly, as they can unleash some decent splinter pod fire - usually this is overlooked in favor of Venoms, but Hellions work in a possible charge after shooting that...well...it doesn't really make them viable, but it at least makes them different enough they deserve individual consideration.

As a quick pseudo fix - I would actually sack that third squad, and use the points to beef up the other two. I'd also like to see the PWs become Agonisers, which are the overall superior weapon and not much more expensive. You will want to sneak in at least one (or two-three) more Troop slots though in my opinion)

Frankly, if it was me I'd sack two squads, and get a single 15 man squad or so to run with the Baron and take advantage of his boosts, and then use the other saved points to buy other Troop selections.

Ardansk wrote:

10x Scourges - 284
2x Heat Lances
2x Blaster

10x Scourges - 284
2x Heatlances
2x Blaster

This is what's *murdering* your point totals. Look at how pricey these units are - can you think of any 300 point unit that couldn't turn them into a grease smear in one turn? Yes, you do need the anti-mech shooting, and yes, these guys provide that, but they do so in a way that is prohibitively expensive.

Consider this - for the cost of *one* of these units you could get *two* Ravagers and still SAVE points.
2 Heat Lances and 2 Haywire Blasters versus 6 Dark Lances...and the Dark Lances are way cheaper. What's up with that? That's because Scourges are a bit expensive for what they do (and by 'a bit' I mean 'a whole pile')

Scourges can and do work - but my recommendation is to run them in squads of 5 - that way it's a little harder to deal with them (most units will overkill Scourges - so by fielding only 5 you make him waste killing power)

The saved 284 points could buy you 2-3 more Troop options very easily - Troop options that will be overall more useful than just 10 Scourges.

Ardansk wrote:

Razorwing Jetfighter - 165
Flickerfield
Splinter Cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter - 165
Flickerfield
Splinter Cannon

Okay with these - though they are competing for the same targets the Hellions are. That said...I sorta think the Hellions will need the help (sorry, sorry, they fail ) so it's maybe not a bad investment.

Hope that helps,
Thor.

I don't share Thor's utter disgust for Hellions(I've never used them, but I do love the models), but I do agree on his point about the scourges. I would drop one of the units for two Ravagers with dark lances-they really are that good. I start every list with two and feel naked without the third when I use my talos. Totally agree on splitting the other squad into two five-man units.
Squad 1-2Xblasters(I prefer haywire over blasters for more consistent results)
Squad 2-2XHaywire
This forces you to drop one Razorwing but nets you around 230 pts that you can spend on some troop units that can help you with AT and holding objectives.
I don't like to comment/critique on peoples' lists here (I'm usually fishing for ideas more than thinking that I have sage advice ) but I also don't like to see someone spend a ton of money on something that will make them want to put their head through a window.

Try the Hellions out(Thor screams "NOOOO!") and see what works for you. Remember to have fun at it and get an evil laugh. That way you never really lose.

Evil Space Elves wrote:

I don't share Thor's utter disgust for Hellions(I've never used them, but I do love the models)

I love the models too (old and new).
I love using them as Beastmasters.

Thor is on point with that stuff. However, I will point out that 3X10 Hellions with an UC with an Agoniser and PGL and the Baron costs (without my codex) 750 pts, leaving you with half your points left.

What do there Hellions need to succeed? Something to shake vehicles (Hellions stand a decent shot at taking down vehicle if they get to them and have enough models, something else we'll consider). So, the Scourges are decent...not in those numbers. If you took 3X5 Scourges with Haywire Blasters that would be another 390(?) points I think.

So about four hundred points to go. Let's take two Ravagers because you need more AT than AI, so that is going to get you to about 150 points left. What I'd do then is just throw another three Hellions into every squad, which basically is all your points left and leaving you with:

Baron
13 Hellions w/ Helliarch w/ Agoniser and PGL
13 Hellions w/ Helliarch w/ Agoniser and PGL
13 Hellions w/ Helliarch w/ Agoniser and PGL
5 Scourges w/ 2 Haywire Blaster
5 Scourges w/ 2 Haywire Blaster
5 Scourges w/ 2 Haywire Blaster
Ravager
Ravager

Probably your Ravagers would never survive a game, but if the HS and FA slots shook enough vehicles that your Hellions engaged some stuff they could punch a decent amount of face. And of course, probably dropping a PGL and putting a defensive upgrade on the Ravagers would help them a bit.

I think 1500 is kind of narrow for a Hellion list and you would probably be better off with two and taking a couple of Wych squads with Grenades, UC, and a Raider. These both add more target saturation, two more AT shots and give your army something to try and pin down stuff too nasty for the Hellions.

Right - I was wondering about the unit sizes.

I don't really mind it being uber competitive - Literally I just love nicely themed armies. (and Batwings (jetfighters) look cool...) and then tend to do ok through opponents confusion (read orc and goblin cavalry army...lol)

On a second read through agonisers sound quite pimp. Will fit them in, I suppose the scourges were a lot of points, I still think I'd rather take 3 units of 5 rather than drop them all together perhaps taking 15 rather than 20 will allow me to bulk up the hellions.

Also doesn't the Baron come with PGL's so one squad doesn't need them on the helliarch?

It seems to me like if I ever intend to do a 40k tournament again - Highly unlikely I prefer WFB for competitive play, i'd go for an entirely different army (ravagers + venom spam). But I think with the suggestions you guys have made this list would have more survivability and make a fun game + look awesome.

Agonisers are quite pimp indeed

Baron does come with a PGL, but I would still give his squad a Helliarch with a Agoniser, as Baron's one weakness is that he doesnt have a PW.

I also dont like Hellions, but what Thor said is spot on. Their strength comes in shooting, and I think that if you do stick with the 3 squads, you should drop the Razorwings for the cheaper and more AT oriented Ravager. Sure they are cool looking models, but at a point you need effectiveness over coolness (if you want to use them, just make another list with them )