Are Kabalite Warriors worth taking?

Count Adhemar wrote:

It's pretty clear that Corsairs are much more versatile than Kabalites, even if they're more expensive. The choice and number of special weapons, ability to take Haywire, add more armour, change unit type etc all makes them far more useful than Kabalites. I can certainly see MSU with 5-man squads kitted out with 2 specials and either jet packs or Venoms.

Yeah, I'm thinking the same. Corsair Reavers feel a lot more like the core of an army.

Can Corsair Venoms replace both Splinter Cannon with other weapons?

Count Adhemar wrote:

Can Corsair Venoms replace both Splinter Cannon with other weapons?

They start with a TL Lasblaster and Splinter Cannon.

- They can replace the Lasblaster with a TL Shuriken Catapult or TL Splinter Rifle (no cost), or with a Splinter Cannon (costs 2 melta bombs) or Shuriken Cannon (costs 4 melta bombs).

- They can replace the Shuriken Cannon with a Splinter Cannon or Scatter Laser (both free).

Do you think 70pts for 2 Shuriken Cannons is worth it?

Price wise, I think they're worth the points.  Lasblasters beat the splinter rifles in most situations, and I'm pretty sure if kabalites could take plasma and defensive grenades (which also have blind) for +2 points we'd do it often if not always.  In MSU, the decreased price of a blaster makes up half that cost again anyway.

We also missed the void harness option there.  I'm not sure if it's a typo though as 3+ armor is 10 points per character or 10 points on an entire unit, up to 20 strong.  If they don't FAQ that out, a lucky roll on the combat drug chart and you've got yourself roughly the same durability as space marines, with better fire power for less points.

As for night vision/pfp - the coterie and first prince bonuses beat them.  PFP never benefited kabalites much anyway (except fnp), and many of those abilities can be gained via special rules or just by buying malevolent units which get pretty much all of them on turn 1.

The leadership thing can be negated with 30 point barons who aren't subject to it, or by keeping them near a prince (where they can re-roll regroup tests).  You're going to need a lot of barons or other cheap HQ in a coterie anyway and they're kind of awesome (25 point shadowfield, 15 point divination psyker level, void sabres etc).

And to answer shredder, sadly I don't think the extra shuriken cannon is worth 20 points.  A multilaser and splinter cannon might be worth 10 though. I went through the same debate regarding my vyper squads. They at least can take lances on the back for 5 points but the front weapon is a tough call.

The Shredder wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

Can Corsair Venoms replace both Splinter Cannon with other weapons?

They start with a TL Lasblaster and Splinter Cannon.

- They can replace the Lasblaster with a TL Shuriken Catapult or TL Splinter Rifle (no cost), or with a Splinter Cannon (costs 2 melta bombs) or Shuriken Cannon (costs 4 melta bombs).

- They can replace the Shuriken Cannon with a Splinter Cannon or Scatter Laser (both free).

Do you think 70pts for 2 Shuriken Cannons is worth it?

Same cost and armament as the Harlequin Starweaver but without the mirage launchers or holo-fields and with lower transport capacity. Not sure it would be worth it.

stilgar27 wrote:

Price wise, I think they're worth the points.  Lasblasters beat the splinter rifles in most situations, and I'm pretty sure if kabalites could take plasma and defensive grenades (which also have blind) for +2 points we'd do it often if not always.  In MSU, the decreased price of a blaster makes up half that cost again anyway.

Not sure about Lasbasters being better than Splinter Rifles, but I'd certainly rather have the Brace of Pistols.

stilgar27 wrote:

We also missed the void harness option there.  I'm not sure if it's a typo though as 3+ armor is 10 points per character or 10 points on an entire unit, up to 20 strong.  If they don't FAQ that out, a lucky roll on the combat drug chart and you've got yourself roughly the same durability as space marines, with better fire power for less points.

Reavers don't have an option for Void Harnesses. They have an option for Void Hardened Armour. No idea what that does though because I can't see any entry for it.

stilgar27 wrote:

As for night vision/pfp - the coterie and first prince bonuses beat.  PFP never benefited kabalites much anyway (except fnp), and many of those abilities can be gained via special rules or just by buying malevolent units which get pretty much all of them on turn 1.

Yeah, Night Vision was good back in 5th and 6th. In 7th... not so much. Like you, I certainly prefer Reckless Abandon to PfP.

stilgar27 wrote:

The leadership thing can be negated with 30 point barons who aren't subject to it, or by keeping them near a prince (where they can re-roll regroup tests).  You're going to need a lot of barons or other cheap HQ in a coterie anyway and they're kind of awesome (25 point shadowfield, 15 point divination psyker level, void sabres etc).

Barons look interesting. However, rather than shadowfield, I'm looking at the Shimmershield. 15pts to give them and their unit a 5++ seems pretty nice. I don't think I'd even bother with weapons, though the 15pt Psyker level is very tempting.

stilgar27 wrote:

And to answer shredder, sadly I don't think the extra shuriken cannon is worth 20 points.  A multilaser and splinter cannon might be worth 10 though.  I went through the same debate regarding my vyper squads.  They at least can take lances on the back for 5 points but the front weapon is a tough call.

Hmm, I wouldn't want to mix S6 weapons with Poison weapons. Maybe 2 splinter cannons, though.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Same cost and armament as the Harlequin Starweaver but without the mirage launchers or holo-fields and with lower transport capacity. Not sure it would be worth it.

Probably not. The trouble is, it feels like a waste not to upgrade the crappy rifle, but even 60pts for 2 splinter cannons feels like an awful lot.

The Shredder wrote:

Not sure about Lasbasters being better than Splinter Rifles, but I'd certainly rather have the Brace of Pistols.

I think I did the math hammering spam earlier in this thread so I won't repeat it, but basically lasblaster do at least as well as splinter rifles vs MEQ and GEQ.  Outside 12" they kill twice as many MEQ and 3 times as many GEQ, plus they're assault. Only inside 12" vs toughness 5, do splinter rifles start pulling (sharply)ahead.

There are a few common things that are toughness 5 and want to charge you (marine bikes, spawn, grotesques), but in general I am firing infantry at toughness 3/4.

Of course, the brace of pistols is more versatile, but shorter range.

The Shredder wrote:

Reavers don't have an option for Void Harnesses. They have an option for Void Hardened Armour. No idea what that does though because I can't see any entry for it.  

That's a good point.  The harness is listed as void hardened armor, so it seems like I'm just misreading again and confusing the two.  I need to stop doing that.

stilgar27 wrote:

I think I did the math hammering spam earlier in this thread so I won't repeat it, but basically lasblaster do at least as well as splinter rifles vs MEQ and GEQ.  Outside 12" they kill twice as many MEQ and 3 times as many GEQ, plus they're assault. Only inside 12" vs toughness 5, do splinter rifles start pulling (sharply)ahead.

Interesting.

In that case, it's probably just my personal bias. As an IG player, I really haven't had much luck with massed S3.  

As an aside, I do find myself wondering if Corsairs were supposed to have access to Avenger Shuriken Catapults, since the standard 12" Shuriken Catapults are entirely pointless (given that Brace of Pistols does exactly the same, whilst also giving the model an extra attack and 2 splinter pistols).  

stilgar27 wrote:

Of course, the brace of pistols is more versatile, but shorter range.

That's true, but their range ties in much better with the range of the Reaver's other weapons - other than the Blaster, they're all range 12" or less. Also, 12" is the range at which you get to use Reckless Abandon, so it seems a good range to focus on. Also, the main reason I prefer the pistols is that I much prefer Shuriken weapons to Splinter or las ones.

I think you would arm each squad differently depending on what you want to do with it. Unlike Kabalites, Corsairs have got the tools they need to specialise in taking on whatever you need them to take on.

Count Adhemar wrote:

I think you would arm each squad differently depending on what you want to do with it. Unlike Kabalites, Corsairs have got the tools they need to specialise in taking on whatever you need them to take on.

The 'Sky Burners' Coterie could definitely make things interesting. Reroll reserves and scatter 1d6 when deep striking could help bring some flamers or fusion guns to bear (as well as lots of pistols, obviously ).

I had my misgivings about strength 3 shooting too, but swooping hawks have been pretty solid over the last two editions and they use these same rifles.  I'll probably only use the lasblaster units on foot or in venoms, and save the jet packs for pistoliers.

It turns out I didn't do the math hammering here so here goes:

Outside 12" Splinter rifles do .333 unsaved wounds against GEQ, lasblasters do 1.0.  Within 12" Splinter rifles improve to .666 while lasblasters stay at 1.0 unsaved wound, but are assault so the firer may charge.

Outside 12" Splinter rifles do .111 unsaved wounds against MEQ, Lasblasters do .222.  Within 12" both do .222 unsaved wounds but lasblasters are again assault.

Outside 12" both splinter rifles and lasblasters do .333 wounds against toughness 5 (not accounting for armor).

Dual shuriken pistols do .889 unsaved wounds vs GEQ and .370 unsaved wounds vs meq within 12" by the way.  They do nearly as well against TEQ (.296 wounds), but have to reduce that a further third because of the invulnerable.

stilgar27 wrote:

I had my misgivings about strength 3 shooting too, but swooping hawks have been pretty solid over the last two editions and they use these same rifles.

I could be wrong, but I thought Swooping Hawks were solid because they:
- Have Jump Packs that can move 18" at no cost
- Can enter ongoing reserves at will
- Deep Strike without scattering
- Drop a S4 AP4 large blast with Ignores Cover every time they enter play
- Have free Haywire Grenades on every model
- Can perform flyby attacks on flyers with said Haywire Grenades that hit on a 4s (so, 6 Swooping Hawks can easily bring down a 3HP Flyer just by brushing against it in the movement phase).

That's all true but on the rare occasion they shoot, they do surprisingly well.

Shooting is probably their least popular option but the fact remains that lasblasters are still better than splinter rifles in the majority of cases, as shown by stilgar27's mathhammer above.

Do you get all that info from 4chan?

CptMetal wrote:

Do you get all that info from 4chan?

Well I'd never recommend anyone go to 4chan, it's NSFW and I honestly didn't know if we have any rules against it.  I only put up a direct link because people were asking for it and couldn't find the posts I was referring to.  Also the page was about to hit archive and become much harder to find.

But ya, essentially the entire corsairs book, and most of the other IA11 rules were up there the other day.  The quality was absolutely horrible however, and I hope that's why I keep misreading things. At least I have a better idea of their capabilities, as I probably won't get a chance to buy the book until after xmas.

CptMetal wrote:

Do you get all that info from 4chan?

Indeed, someone uploaded pictures of all the corsair rules.

Well damn, I was jealous for a second there that you guys had already gotten the new book. I'm looking at doing another forgeworld order soon, but one of my local players already bought a digital copy I believe.

Are the weapon options on the corsairs all free or is there a cost difference from lasblaster to rifle or pistols? Otherwise, I guess you'll just be picking which targets you want to do more damage to, the GEQ/MEQ variant or T5+. I am definitely a fan of lasblasters as I generally like weight of numbers over specialized weapons for taking targets down.

All the weapon variations are free, unless you count sniper rifles on rangers which are 1 point.  Specialize all you want, you can do so further with the coterie rules.  They're cut off partially but as it stand you can reduce the deep strike scatter on lasblaster units in venoms, or give hatred against a single enemy unit or the "head-taker" rule to a melee oriented coterie.

Funny thing, I actually got mentioned unfavorably in that thread just for colorfully warning people here that 4chan was nsfw.  650ish or so most popular site on the internet (out of roughly 644,000,000) and people really think it's their own secret little club house.

Then again if you get mentioned on 4chan, it's probably unfavorably.

Apparently I got my own thread on there once for banning some juvenile, racist little moron from this site. I didn't bother looking...

stilgar27 wrote:

Funny thing, I actually got mentioned unfavorably in that thread just for colorfully warning people here that 4chan was nsfw.  650ish or so most popular site on the internet (out of roughly 644,000,000) and people really think it's their own secret little club house.

Then again if you get mentioned on 4chan, it's probably unfavorably.

I wonder if you'll get a mention for mentioning this?

stilgar27 wrote:

All the weapon variations are free, unless you count sniper rifles on rangers which are 1 point.  Specialize all you want, you can do so further with the coterie rules.  They're cut off partially but as it stand you can reduce the deep strike scatter on lasblaster units in venoms, or give hatred against a single enemy unit or the "head-taker" rule to a melee oriented coterie.

I have to say, a minimum 'Hate Bringers' Coterie seems almost an auto-take - especially if you play EW missions.

"I really hate that Rhino. Oh look, it's dead - 1 VP for me."

It seems to me that Corsairs are what Kabalite Warriors wish they were.

Any thoughts on modelling Kabalite warriors with pistols and using them as 'counts as' Corsairs?

Creeping Darkness wrote:

It seems to me that Corsairs are what Kabalite Warriors wish they were.

Yep.

Creeping Darkness wrote:

Any thoughts on modelling Kabalite warriors with pistols and using them as 'counts as' Corsairs?

I'm planning to add Jet Packs to my Kabalites and use them as Corsairs. Probably something like this:

Spoiler:

One useful thing to note is that the rules specifically exempt you fro needing to represent a Brace of Pistols on the model. So, you'll need to have some appropriate special weapons where applicable, but you can probably do whatever you want with the other models.

Creeping Darkness wrote:

Any thoughts on modelling Kabalite warriors with pistols and using them as 'counts as' Corsairs?

Besides the (vehicle) units already available in eldar lists, only reaver bands and cloud dancer bikes have models, and those are actually just optional upgrades (and helmets) for those units.  As I understand it, forgeworld hasn't committed to putting out models for the rest of the corsairs list.  I suspect the reason you are not required to model units with a brace of pistols, is that there may never be an official kit to do so (but harlequins have left handed shuriken pistols and craftworld/dark eldar pistols are right handed if you wanted to).

Personally, I take an army list without models as an invitation to use whatever the heck we want to.

There are a couple threads in the painting/modelling section if you feel like looking, otherwise just go nuts.

stilgar27 wrote:

Creeping Darkness wrote:

Any thoughts on modelling Kabalite warriors with pistols and using them as 'counts as' Corsairs?

Besides the (vehicle) units already available in eldar lists, only reaver bands and cloud dancer bikes have models, and those are actually just optional upgrades (and helmets) for those units.  As I understand it, forgeworld hasn't committed to putting out models for the rest of the corsairs list.  I suspect the reason you are not required to model units with a brace of pistols, is that there may never be an official kit to do so (but harlequins have left handed shuriken pistols and craftworld/dark eldar pistols are right handed if you wanted to).

Personally, I take an army list without models as an invitation to use whatever the heck we want to.

There are a couple threads in the painting/modelling section if you feel like looking, otherwise just go nuts.

This.