What's there to gain?

So, one of the few obvious things in dark eldar fluff is the fact that most of them are made in labs by the haemonculi, but I totally fail to understand why; if the haemonculi are the only ones who can create new dark eldar, shouldn't they hold significant power over the kabals then they currently do?

Forget about raising you higher ups once they've fallen in battle, if you can't replace the random recruits who die all the time, what are you gonna do?

And my second query being, since Commoragh is a city, and we know it isn't just kabalite warfare, they have merchants and artisans and such, what is the incentive for a haemonculi to make any? Because if you're trueborn, you'll already be part of a kabal, cult or something similar, and if you were created, someone should've payed for you, so who create the hellion gangs? Who are these people that populate Low Commoragh? Xenos?

Presumably there are still plenty of naturally born Dark Eldar getting around (as God Jes Goodwin emphasised in one of those designer interviews, "it's the Dark City... there's plenty of it going on!"), and presumably many of these eventually rebel against their parents and end up as outcasts in Low Commorragh.

The cloning vats are an interesting one though. I imagine that money changes hands and a group of Dark Eldar are grown, perhaps into a period of indentured servitude to their master, before they too get to go off and do as they please - being inducted into the Kabal proper if they are good enough, or being kicked out into the streets if they don't measure up.

Then again, the haemonculi seem to have different priorities than other dark eldar, and some also seem to be attached to Kabals with sufficiently strong ties that they would raise more minions at their Archon's whim. Maybe the more well to do Kabals have themselves taken control of some cloning vats? I know I would, if I were an Archon... perhaps they are simple enough to use (by Eldar standards) that no haemonculus is required!

Not to mention that with Wracks being assistants to Haemonculi, they probably know how to use their technology. I'm sure many a subservient client Coven and new junior Haemonculus came out of enterprising Wracks working as cloning vat technicians for some Archon.

I thoght it was more like some Wych becomes pregnant and goes off to the Haemie to swap unwanted for the latest in poisons?

As Jes Godwin said, theres lots going on.

Or else its all test tube babies?

Well, all of these, and then some.

Haemonculi can make tubeborn, and they do; it's something long established, though I am certain they keep the technology in-house, or rather in-Coven, as it's one of their sources of power. If no-one else can make them, and they are a desired commodity, then it gives a Haemie useful leverage.

Low Commorragh does indeed contain a lot of alien life, as well as Dark Eldar.

Given that DE gestation takes a lot longer than Human, I think that most Trueborn are either from the rich (as a status symbol) or the poor (too poor to enjoy the benefits of tube gestation).

Suppose you are a Haemonculus. You don't want to spend your days on mundane matters like survival or finding a place to do your experiments! No, find yourself an Archon, make a deal and they will supply you with a workshop and all the slaves you need for the simple exchange of a batch of tubeborn warriors every so often. While you get on with the important stuff. Like building a better Grotesque.

Arena champions do NOT have time to take several years out while pregnant (think of the loss in fame and ratings!), so I can totally see them handing the gestation of a child over to the Haemonculi after a certain point. No need to miss the conception part though ... Does this count as tubeborn or Trueborn, I wonder?

I wouldn't put it past raiders to steal children, after all they do all the other Bad Fairy things.

There is another small source of population: Craftworld outcasts. Though if you've got as far as the Dark City, you are definitely off the Path and it's probably a bit late to evaluate your life choices.

Lady Malys wrote:

I think that most Trueborn are either from the rich (as a status symbol) or the poor (too poor to enjoy the benefits of tube gestation).

I love this. Great perspective I've never seen before.

Dark Eldar have a much longer life span than a human too. Imagine being the equivilent of an angsty teen for a century or two.
Whats a few decades spent running with a hellion gang before you grow up and get a real job as a Kabalite Warrior?

Lady Malys wrote:

There is another small source of population: Craftworld outcasts. Though if you've got as far as the Dark City, you are definitely off the Path and it's probably a bit late to evaluate your life choices.

Yeah, this was also the case in the Path of the Dark Eldar books (minor spoilers incoming).
A Craftworlder got sick of his life and offered an Archon his service and eventually he became a Dracon.

Sure, you should be careful what you take as canon from 40k books, but at least this shows that it is a very reasonable scenario.

Do vat grown eldar have souls? This could explain why dark eldar don't use the soul trapping stones of craftworld eldar. If you have no warp presence then the prince of excess has no interest in you. The dark eldar consume souls so the vatborne are perfect if they are not competing for substanance. I would only create trueborne as soul shields/meatshields. Sticking a balance of soul and souless would be necassery for a kabal Just like organisms in nature finding the optimized size for survival in the environment.

They do have souls, as they're still essentially conceived the same way, they're just gestated differently. There's been nothing to hint that this would stop them having souls, as even the Afriel Strain, a group of cloned Imperial Guard, have souls, even if they do have terrible luck.
The only difference between vat-born and True-born seems to be purely a prestige thing on behalf of the parents, nothing actually physical.

I'm sure the zygote is genetically modified. This is intresting. Its determinism v.s free will. Yet they are the same? Are the dark eldar
"Compatibilists"

I still think its possible they don't have a warp presence. The clones you mention have the same problems that soulless have. Other soldiers hate them.
Its like one had a destiny and the clones have become variables which upsets the narrative. Like Horus was cloned but could never regain his station in life.

They are not clones actually. The ovaries of female Eldar are embedded into tubes and fertilized.

But there are clones too for sure

CptMetal wrote:

The ovaries of female Eldar are embedded into tubes and fertilized.

It's pre-fertilised eggs that are implanted into the tubes.

But not clones anyway. Maybe modified but not clones.

Like the Scorpion on the Wolf's back, the Haemonculus is not going to resist his nature... The zygotes are genetically modified, there for they exist in a diminished capacity. Trueborn are products of natural selection. If the warp is chaos and the soul exists in the warp then I argue natural selection is the only way a soul can form. If you alter the subject before the soul is formed you creat a pariah.



The-wolf-and-the-scorpion.

Vatborns are Gingers

youtube.com/watch?v=EY39fkmqKBM

If the tube-born were blanks, why would they even stay in the webway? The entire reason for staying there is that Slaanesh's influence is at it's lowest, you could conquer planets due to the lack of threat, the only difference between tube and true born are that trueborn have parents, anyone who has a child in a Kabal must be powerful themselves, ergo they inherit a bit of that power, they act with distain because that's how Dark Eldar treat anyone who is better than them.

Actually, even clones have souls, the universe just hates them. After all, we're told about the Culexus Assassins that Pariahs are incredibly rare things if there was a way of reliably producing them, the Imperium would be aware of it. After all, all Krieg soldiers are grown the ame way the vat-born are, yet they're not soulless.
And secondly, the most modified creatures in existance, the Primarchs, all had souls, and included some of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy. Therefore, genetic modification has no impact on whether you get a soul or not.

^ This

CptMetal wrote:

^ This

I remember reading a short story about a death corp being hypnotized by a genestealer and shaking it off. In the uncorruptible audio drama a grey Knight is taken over by genestealers. There are examples of lesser extremes of nulls like-

Gunner Ferik Jurgen – Cain's personal aide. Noticeable for his powerful body odour and chronic psoriasis (which discourages others from getting too close to him), Jurgen is also a "blank", or a psychic null (which might account for other people's dislike of Jurgen as much as his hygiene

Lesser extremes of psyker-
Lieutenant Kage: The most senior officer other than Schaeffer and the de facto field commander, who somehow got himself stuck in the legion TWICE after a second offense committed after his first pardon. A latent psyker, he was KIA in his successful attempt to assassinate Herman von Strab,

could be some clones that have souls and some who don't... We can all be right! Yes?

But the "fact" is the pariah gene. A heamoculus could modify a zygote to have it and that would give the Archon advantages as someone else already pointed out

Afaik the pariah gene is human only and probably artificially introduced into humanity.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:

Afaik the pariah gene is human only and probably artificially introduced into humanity.

so it could be artificially introduced to my kabalite warriors? Lol... Sorry I'm done this is starting to make me feel like a clone. Nullbody likes me..

Sorry if we gave that impression!
If anyone is capable of tinkering with the Pariah gene, it's those amazing metaphysicians, the Haemonculi! I don't doubt there's a whole discipline among them involving messing around with psychic ability and the lack of it. If you like the idea that your Dark Eldar have been tinkered with to actually have no soul as a possible "cure" for the Thirst, I'm actually pretty intrigued. Would Slaanesh still be interested in them, or might it have unintended side-effects? Maybe the Webway responds differently to them in some way?

I just don't believe it's a guaranteed symptom of genetic manipulation. Targetted though? Sure! We're the Dark Eldar, after all! Mad science and toying with that which is beyond mortal comprehension is pretty much our thing! Someone says it's against the laws of nature, and somewhere there's a Haemonculus taking notes on doing exactly that.

Aroshamash wrote:

Sorry if we gave that impression!
If anyone is capable of tinkering with the Pariah gene, it's those amazing metaphysicians, the Haemonculi! I don't doubt there's a whole discipline among them involving messing around with psychic ability and the lack of it. If you like the idea that your Dark Eldar have been tinkered with to actually have no soul as a possible "cure" for the Thirst, I'm actually pretty intrigued. Would Slaanesh still be interested in them, or might it have unintended side-effects? Maybe the Webway responds differently to them in some way?

I just don't believe it's a guaranteed symptom of genetic manipulation. Targetted though? Sure! We're the Dark Eldar, after all! Mad science and toying with that which is beyond mortal comprehension is pretty much our thing! Someone says it's against the laws of nature, and somewhere there's a Haemonculus taking notes on doing exactly that.

Oh I was making a joke, you guys really made some good points and its a privilege to be here and get to interact with you thank you. Did you get my joke "No" "null" nullbody likes me... Get it, get it, ahe ahe aho.p

(In character)
Ha ha I will take a note that even dark eldar are vulnerable to psychological manipulation! All hail the Omnissiah!!! MUHAHAH!!!

I want to be like butters's professor chaos in techpreist form...