Bloodbrides or Wracks

which do yall think is more effective in the assault and overall killing power in a 1000pt game, im trying to tweak my army list so its just right and am becoming totally confused as what to do with my CC part of my list, as so many people are saying so many different things in favor or against stuff.

There is no question that Bloodbrides have more killing power (unless someone is a derp head).

That said - at 1000 I'd probably take the Wracks first, as I'd want the Troop slot more than the more killy thing. (I'd probably take Wyches instead of either for CC, personally, but just withing your choices that's my call)

Bloodbrides are more expensive than Wracks and while they have better killing potential... I would go cheap. Especially since Wracks can be taken as Troops and You want Troops just because You may have problems with filling 6 slots + mandatory HQ at this point level. Scorings = good, just because You don't want to end without them early in game.

My opinion is identical to those above. Just remember that you need a haemonculus to make Wracks count as troops.

Plus, at 1000pts, you'll probably want to stick the Haemonculus with the Wracks. At that point they have FNP and FC, combined with their poisoned weapons and are pretty punchy. A similarly costed BB squad will be around 7 models and be more offensive, but they will also be less defensive.

I actually think BBs are one of the worst choices in the book. Not in terms of being good, but just in terms of what role they fill vs other things in the book.

Really, they just compete in a bad slot - Wyches are almost as good and are Troops - and if you want an Elite slot that's an assault machine...there are Incubi staring you in the face.

They're good, and work fine, it's just they have a hard time finding a good home (maybe a list with all Kabalite Troop selections going uber shooty, and then wanting some assault tools?

This unit actually make me wonder - why?
Trueborn have at least Heavy Weapons (beeing "Devastators"), but BB? not bad, just pointless. 0-1 upgrade like in case of Ork 'ardboyz (one Boy unit can have 4+ armour for 4+ point increse per model, pretty swet deal) would be better.

Or as Succubi retinue.

Back on topic - Anthony13, you only asked about units in Elite slots, right? I wouldn't bother with more than 1 (if any) of Fast, Elites or HS units at this point level.
1K or less = You want go with "solid core", which is made from solid Troops choices.

Local_Ork wrote:

This unit actually make me wonder - why?
Trueborn have at least Heavy Weapons (beeing "Devastators"), but BB? not bad, just pointless.

Harder hitting Wyches that allow more Wych Weapon shenanigans that can let them eat Dreads, toy with clonefield tricks, or just stomp even more face.

Thor665 wrote:

Local_Ork wrote:

This unit actually make me wonder - why?
Trueborn have at least Heavy Weapons (beeing "Devastators"), but BB? not bad, just pointless.

Harder hitting Wyches that allow more Wych Weapon shenanigans that can let them eat Dreads, toy with clonefield tricks, or just stomp even more face.

Harder hitting? Seriously? Those extra S3 AT- punches really don't add up against MEQs (practically all 'serious' opposition these days except for IG and Tau). And as far as Wych weapons are concerned, even with the clone field it's hardly worth investing in a full unit of non-scoring Wyches that are only a tiny bit better at tarpitting...

Just as Raneth, I'm not sure if losing ability to score in exchange of 2 points increase, +1 attack and more wych weapons (we still need to pay for those) is what we actually need (and want, it's not good deal IMHO).
IMHO beeing able to upgrade unit in Troops with additional attack would be better. Or ability to take cheap "Court", also gentle idea.

If I can use quote...

Quote :

Truth, by Thor: I see very little reason to take FA slots while you have open Troop slots. Troops can do what these are doing, but do it better and for less cost, and be a scoring unit.

Not sure if BB can be reliable alternative to Wyches. Not without one of their "tool" (scoring).

Raneth wrote:

Harder hitting? Seriously?

Seriously - certainly it's more expensive, but there's no doubt about it;

Maximum damage Wych squad no drug effect.
10 Wyches w. 1 Hek w. Agoniser and 2 Hydra Gauntlets (I'll presume a roll of 3 and 4)
32 Attacks - 16 hit WS 4 - 5.3 Wound toughness 4
4 Agoniser attacks - 2 hit - 1 wounds
---------------------------------
6.3 wounds inflicted with 1 being a power weapon

Maximum damage Bride squad no drug effect.
10 Brides w. 1 Syren w. Agoniser and 3 Hydra Gauntlets (I'll presume a roll of 3, 3 and 4)
43 Attacks - 21.5 hit WS 4 - 7.2 Wound toughness 4
5 Agoniser attacks - 2.5 hit - 1.25 wounds
---------------------------------
8.45 wounds inflicted with 1.25 being a power weapon

That is a not minor increase in hitting power considering the point difference as it is greater than 25% damage output for a 7.5% increase in point expenditure - *very* solid numbers, especially considering the greater number of power weapon attacks and also that I intentionally went with a down grade on their die roll with the HGs.

Now, if your Wych squad is there to accomplish something other than absolute devastation, or you need Elite slots for something else, oh, yes, totally I agree, Wyches are great and probably better. But Bloodbrides do inflict a serious damage upgrade.

Local_Ork wrote:

Quote :

Truth, by Thor: I see very little reason to take FA slots while you have open Troop slots. Troops can do what these are doing, but do it better and for less cost, and be a scoring unit.

Not sure if BB can be reliable alternative to Wyches. Not without one of their "tool" (scoring).

I'll be honest and admit I don't score with my Wyches as often as I'd like...that comes out sounding terrible, but, yes. Generally their purpose is killing and assaulting vehicles, and, at best, I contest with them. For my purposes then - Bloodbrides have a solid upgrade status. If you are fixated on scoring with Wyches (again, this sounds bad) then, yes, Bloodbrides are not for you - but they do have a purpose to exist above and beyond just being a scoring unit.

Thor665 wrote:

I'll be honest and admit I don't score with my Wyches as often as I'd like...that comes out sounding terrible, but, yes. Generally their purpose is killing and assaulting vehicles, and, at best, I contest with them. For my purposes then - Bloodbrides have a solid upgrade status. If you are fixated on scoring with Wyches (again, this sounds bad) then, yes, Bloodbrides are not for you - but they do have a purpose to exist above and beyond just being a scoring unit.

I don't think wyches should ever have a scoring role as a primary role, but with wyches instead of blood brides, when you have that 1 or 2 models left, they can easily go and hole up in cover close to an objective. It's that flexibility that make the wyches more preferential. It's a bit harder to quantify.

If you were looking for ore punch than Wyches I'd go Harlequins or Incubi or Beasts, but Brides are better than Wyches in terms of damage output. I wish instead of the 0-3 Wych weapons Brides had more of a TB option list, didn't have an upgrade character, and could take something like one Hekatrix weapon per five on top of the Wych weapons. This would give the squad some interesting builds like:

6 Brides w/ one Agoniser, 2 Shardnets

This would give them a mini-HQ slot/Wych look befitting an elite slot*.

Anyway, Brides are a poor option, period. Unless you are playing Wych Cult at 2500 and already used you Troop allotment, at which point they are all you have left basically.

*Likewise, I think the Dracon should have two wounds and thus able to be a mini-HQ just for the sake of taking a Dracon as a Kabal representative in a Wych cult like.

Hmmm, I understand the OP mentioned "assault" but then mentions overall effectiveness.

Instead of making a 1 dimensional comparison, let's consider the shooting phase as well as the assault. I would garner that the wracks would surpass wyches and brides in this regard albeit that they would have to get both done effectively (flame and charge).

Perhaps figuring the shooting phase into the equation poses a lot of "what if's" but if both are getting a raider then I would think considering the shooting phase is not entirely out of the question.

I know the brides have fleet but the wracks tend to survive better than the brides when they fail a charge - heck, the brides probably shouldn't even consider firing for fear of scaring the target away.

I dunno, are we missing a piece of the puzzle here?

Hmm...
And if we could know how rest of list looks and what is point limit, what would be useful too.

Thor665 wrote:

I'll be honest and admit I don't score with my Wyches as often as I'd like...that comes out sounding terrible, but, yes. Generally their purpose is killing and assaulting vehicles, and, at best, I contest with them. For my purposes then - Bloodbrides have a solid upgrade status.

The extra attack doesn't count on haywires right. And contesting is good enough in most cases,BBs will never give you that last-second push to victory.

What Ork said strikes a chord with me - all Hekas, but none of the weapon options. Even if it were just Venom Blades, the unit would become a lot more attractive to me. As it stands I have a really hard time justifying their Elite status.

My succubus loves her BB squad, seriously if we all ran tb venom spam it gets boring fast.
I will say the 2 or 3 shardnets + archon w/clone field is lots of fun to pull on people hehe

My BB w/ sucubus are a killing machine, regardless of shooting survivability they smack down pretty much anything they charge...

The reason BB are here is because of the wych weapon shenanigans. Sure, they are more killy (as shown by Thor) But where they really shine are as a "retinue" for a HB/ST archon. Let them run up to the nearest MC/IC, and annoy the hell out of him with those Sharnets, while that archon hopes for that unsaved wound Just look at their profile at their WW, every 3 gets one. So 9 BB w/ 3 WW, Syrien w/ Agoniser begs to have an IC with them

personally i would take bloodbrides/wyches. I quite often play 1000 point battles and my bloodbrides (especially when accompanied by lelith) are always the stars of the show. As for the wracks and their "use" for holding on to objectives... well in an obj game, as a DE player, you don't want to hold any objectives anyway until the last turn.
Wyches/bloodbrides have incredible cc stats and a great amount of attacks. You can happily use them to slow down anything from terminators to bloodletters-(inv really is a major advantage) and equally with the shear amount of attacks, can decimate others and even termies with furious charge. I would strongly recommend them over wracks, and on top of this, the AT upgrade is also pretty effective!