Wraithguard D scyths vs fire dragons. WWP taxi.

I am considering using one of them, while the dragons are cheaper (points wise), I dont see them having the variety of targets the wraithguard would have, although, dragons would be more mobile after deepstriking.

My other consideration, as I dont own the guard or dragons, is that a box of guard would be more variety in models I could use as I would magnetize the D cannons and wraithblade stuff as well giving me the possibility of using up to 4 different units out of the same models while being only 10$ more.

I plan on running a squad of scouting walkers with lances for AT but a WWP of dragons is a nice trump card for imperial knights or other big point sinks, but would the extra points for the D-Scyth guard have enough variety and punch to make it worth it?

WWP D-scythes are the most versatile, cost effective "see it? Kill it" option we have available that can still even remotely be considered DE. An agile opponent will be able to avoid them after their initial strike, but they're T6 with 3+ armour saves, so that makes them fantastic at area denial and objective camping.

I'd generally try to kill the biggest bad you can with them when they arrive, and land them close to other things that will either have to scatter, or weather some D.

What's the easiest way to field Wraithguard with DE?

Just Allied Detach with 3 bike Troops and an HQ? CAD with 6 Bikes if you want more?
WraithHost is too large points wise.

I mean, they're all "easy". The cheapest way is with an allied detachment with 1 warlock, 1 unit of bikes, and your wraithguard.

I prefer Rangers to jetbikes if we're talking about taking them base. If you can afford the 30 pts for Scatbikes I definitely think they are better but firmly believe that Rangers have more utility than basic Catbikes.

In the "want more" scenario I don't think cheapest is synonymous with most effective. Reserves manipulation from an autarch is worth 60pts in tax if you are looking to drop 3 units of wraithguard with wwp's, and if that Autarch is providing fearless to Vanilla book grotesques, or ignores overwatch to Reaver Jetbikes they aren't tax. 2 units of scatterbikes are more than 42pts better than two units of rangers, and well worth the 60pts over catapults tho. So in a CAD I'd recommend Scatbikes first and foremost unless you are null deploying then maybe rangers.

amorrowlyday wrote:

I prefer Rangers to jetbikes if we're talking about taking them base. If you can afford the 30 pts for Scatbikes I definitely think they are better but firmly believe that Rangers have more utility than basic Catbikes.

I completely disagree. Being obsec with 3+ armour, the ability to jink, and the ability to move 48" to steal objectives in a single turn makes basic windrider jetbikes the premier objective secured objective capturer in the game.

Even if you buy 6 units of them and sacrifice 1 per round to control a single objective worth points every round, it will be points well spent. That's 300 points for 6 almost guaranteed victory points per game, and they CAN score significantly more than that. 6 is a worst case scenario.

They're easy to keep out of LoS in small units of 3 until you need them, and they can get anywhere on the table on the turn they come into play if you keep them in reserve. They're just SO good at taking objectives, I don't know how anyone could think rangers are even close to on the same level.

I would imagine it comes from the same meta-alterations that lead to people dropping off their 5 man squads in their own backline before charging the venoms forward (a tactic you have decried): objectives tending to be placed into cover and near deployments. Infiltrate and shrouded yields either an effective scout move containment speed bump, or a 2+ cover obsec unit. base bikes simply don't have the power to shove an obsec marine unit off of an objective, and a half turn of negating their obsec simply isn't worth 51pts.

amorrowlyday wrote:

I would imagine it comes from the same meta-alterations that lead to people dropping off their 5 man squads in their own backline before charging the venoms forward (a tactic you have decried):

Come again? I don't recall doing that. I personally think dropping off a unit of warriors to go to ground and hold an objective is fine. En masse, not so much.

amorrowlyday wrote:

Infiltrate and shrouded yields either an effective scout move containment speed bump, or a 2+ cover obsec unit that is likely within charge range of something on turn 1.

Added a likely reality.

amorrowlyday wrote:

base bikes simply don't have the power to shove an obsec marine unit off of an objective, and a half turn of negating their obsec simply isn't worth 51pts.

See, that's where we simply use them differently. I normally take at least 4 units of windrider jetbikes to every game, and I honestly don't care if they never shoot at all. That's not their job, to "push someone off an objective". I use my other units to do that, and put my cheap obsec windriders on the objective to get me some points.

Now the opponent has been put to a decision. Does he target that big nasty shooty thing that just iced his marine squad at range, or the 50 point jetbikes squad that is sitting on the objective? It put's your opponent to the test, forcing a decision between 2 non-optimal situations, either way of which, you come out ahead. Either you get another turn scoring an objective, or it draws fire away from your more dangerous units.

Often, even when I take scatterbikes, I will take a couple units of bikes without scatter lasers for just that purpose. I think that you'll find opponents often hesitant to fire at a T4 unit with a 3+ armour save and jink, if said unit doesn't have any offensive weapon. That makes them even tougher than their already formidable profile would suggest. The best defense ever is to not be the target of attacks.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Come again? I don't recall doing that. I personally think dropping off a unit of warriors to go to ground and hold an objective is fine. En masse, not so much.

Fair I was specifically referring to the hub-bub that blew up right after the FAQ dropped, in the 'More strategy less crying' thread. I may well be overblowing your position tho.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

amorrowlyday wrote:

Infiltrate and shrouded yields either an effective scout move containment speed bump, or a 2+ cover obsec unit that is likely within charge range of something on turn 1.

Added a likely reality.

But so what? Either I have forced them to telegraph their first punch or I have drawn their vanguard to a place on the map where I can separate and target it down. If I am placing Rangers close enough to my enemy that the entire flank is able to come crashing down on me that's a misplay, and says more about me then the effectiveness of Rangers. If 1 unit is charging them then I may give up first blood, which I allow for every game, but If that unit is something big and special I'm gonna kill it on deep strike, and, unless it's something like a SH walker, when I do I'll be the one standing on that objective at the end of turn 2. Obsec be damned.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Now the opponent has been put to a decision. Does he target that big nasty shooty thing that just iced his marine squad at range, or the 50 point jetbikes squad that is sitting on the objective? It put's your opponent to the test, forcing a decision between 2 non-optimal situations, either way of which, you come out ahead. Either you get another turn scoring an objective, or it draws fire away from your more dangerous units.

There's our disconnect. Aside from the few occasions I decide to take a Warp Hunter my effective play range for damage output is a little over 2 feet. I don't take big nasty shooty things, closest thing would be Dark lance Cloud dancers or a Voidraven(rofl), and if I am playing the former right they probably can't strike back.

Out of the 6 base maelstrom game modes, and their derivatives, very few make it worthwhile for one to hold an objective longer then the very last moment of ones own turn(I do not and have no intention of playing with the new objective cards), and if I don't actually field some tiger, instead opting for one of our paper ones, the lure won't keep my jetbikes from disappearing.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Often, even when I take scatterbikes, I will take a couple units of bikes without scatter lasers for just that purpose. I think that you'll find opponents often hesitant to fire at a T4 unit with a 3+ armour save and jink, if said unit doesn't have any offensive weapon. That makes them even tougher than their already formidable profile would suggest. The best defense ever is to not be the target of attacks.

This is a compelling point. I'm not sure if I completely agree with the lead up, but the hook is top notch.

amorrowlyday wrote:

There's our disconnect. Aside from the few occasions I decide to take a Warp Hunter my effective play range for damage output is a little over 2 feet. I don't take big nasty shooty things

Yeah, it sounds like we play different types of lists. The sheer ruthlessness of my shooting lists would probably take you aback, though. Quick example: I know, right off the top of my head, that if I take 6 units of 3 vaul's wrath support batteries(fairly uncommon unit to mass), I can fill my entire deployment zone and make it impossible for my opponent to deep strike behind me or outflank. Paired with 2 minimum sized counter-assault units, this creates a situation where the opponent either needs to shoot to kill multiple units that have 12 wounds each with 3+ armour saves and 4+ cover saves, or fight in CC through 3 layers of units to get to the objective in my deployment zone. This means my opponent can't possibly get to my objective until turn 3 at the earliest, more likely turn 5-6 for most opponents. And every shot or combat not directed at these specific units is potentially another turn they'd need to get past them. And that's just half of my deployment.

amorrowlyday wrote:

Out of the 6 base maelstrom game modes, and their derivatives, very few make it worthwhile for one to hold an objective longer then the very last moment of ones own turn(I do not and have no intention of playing with the new objective cards)

I don't play maelstrom, except for in tournaments or in preparation for tournaments, where they use a hybrid form of maelstrom plus eternal war style missions. In said tournaments, this is the typical "maelstrom mission" chart:

1- Hold your objective #1(in your deployment)
2- Hold your objective #2(in no man's land)
3- Hold your opponent's objective #1(in his/her deployment)
4- Hold your opponent's objective #2(in no man's land)
5- Kill a Unit
6- Kill a Unit

The first 4 are pretty universal. It seems like they're present in some form in almost every mission of every tournament. The last 2 "kill a unit" objectives will occasionally be subbed out for things like "have at least 3 of your own units in your deployment zone, and no enemy units", but 2/3's of the objectives are "Hold objective X". Scoring also varies between the end of YOUR turn, the end of the GAME turn, and the end of the OPPONENT's turn. I've seen all 3 used in major GTs.

In such formats, I'm sure you can see the utility now of having obsec on a 48" movement platform.