The Void Spiders ITC 1850pts

Hi Folks,

Lawrence 'The Spider' Baker here from the YouTube channel, Tabletop Tactics.

I don't often post on here, but I've been a long time reader. I recently had the pleasure of being interviewed on the Splintermind Podcast along with Skari and in the podcast, amongst other topics, I spoke about Haywire Blasters on Talos. Specifically how I didn't like them and found them lacklustre in a tournament setting.

In summary, I often found that of the 5, 4 would hit (with your re-rolls) and then you would glance 3/4 times. Then invariably, your opponent would have cover with screening troops or ruins etc, or worse he will have an Ion Shield and he will save a couple. More often then not, this left me with only 2 hull points off of your friendly neighbourhood Razorback. Not impressive.

In a list where you have lots of other options to help finish this Razorback off however, that is not a problem, but I found that in almost every instance I would have been better off running the Corpse Thief Claw closer to the enemy armoured wall, to better ensure my next turn charge. As after all, very few tanks are going to be able to stand up against the CTC when they're charged unless they are an Imperial Knight.

Based on the above, I have recently been playing the CTC with Splinter Cannons and found them very potent against the prevalent bike and Flying Monstrous Creature lists we often see these days, but as with the Haywire, sometimes you are just better off running to ensure your charge in subsequent turns.

Finally, I had a small discussion with @betraytheworld and @unorthodoxy in another post about how they preferred the Haywire to the Splinter, which has led me to posting this list for you folks.

+++ Void Spiders - ITC - R.A.I.D.E.R (1850pts) +++

++ Dark Eldar: Supplement - Haemonculus Covens (Formation Detachment) ++

+ Formation +

Formation: Corpsethief Claw
Talos [Ichor Injector, Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster]
Talos [Ichor Injector, Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster]
Talos [Ichor Injector, Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster]
Talos [Ichor Injector, Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster]
Talos [Ichor Injector, Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster]

Formation: Dark Artisan
Cronos [Spirit Probe]
Haemonculus [Flesh Gauntlet, Scissorhand, Splinter Pistol]
Talos [Ichor Injector, Twin-Linked Haywire Blaster]

++ Dark Eldar: Codex (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Court of the Archon [Lhameans]
Venom [Splinter Cannon]

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [4x Kabalite Warrior]
Kabalite Warrior with special weapon [Blaster] x6
Venom [Splinter Cannon] x6

1850pts on the button.

This list is something that I would consider bringing to an ITC Tournament (although I won't as I prefer Splinter on the CTC and finding anti-tank elsewhere) and thought that it would be a good highlight of when I WOULD use Haywire on the CTC.

In summary, you don't have enough points in the rest of the list to invest in Anti-Tank, without sacrificing Objective Secured units (not something you want to do in the progressive missions that the ITC have). Since you are extremely likely to come across Imperial Knights and a variety of other units that must be dealt with such as Warp Hunters etc, I would in this instance, go against my own advice and take the Haywire on the CTC.

So guys, what do you think?

I still prefer Splinter Cannons on the CTC overall, but not in this 'deathstar' style list. What would you change and why?

Cheers,

Lawrence
www.tabletoptactics.tv

I am personally not a fan of haywire blasters on Corpsethief but without it you're seriously lacking reliable AT and for a pure DE list, not having any reasonable alternative.

Depending on Corpsethief to pop tanks in CC seems so dicey, especially since if you hit a squad of soft units you can win the game from VP alone, but i'm extremely hesitant to criticize someone who is obviously much more experienced then I.

If I remember correctly your old list had a ton of reavers in it to help compensate for that AT but I imagine vs. Tau or Taudar it wasn't a pretty sight.


My last thought I have is how well does this hold up against Battle Company w/ Grav Spam, Bike lists(White scars/Ravenwing) with Grav Spam or a Tau/Taudar Gunline with a Riptide wing and a Wraithknight? I would say these archtypes are pretty popular at least where I am and would definately expect to see them at a tournament. Additionally, if I were piloting this list I feel like I would struggle a great deal with those 3 armies, so i'm curious as to what your thoughts are on the matchups.

@umbralz Thanks for the reply Grav spam hasn't been an issue for this list so far, as a combination of good cover and the use of the Dark Artisan make the Corpse Thief incredibly resilient. With cover they have a 4+, followed by a 4+ Feel No Pain, re-rolling 1s due to the Artisan and the fixed Warlord Trait.

D weapons are of course a big issue.

I just played a battle report that I will release on Freeview next week, where I face off against a 5 man Riptide Wing, Drone net, Stormsurge and Void Shield support. I didn't quite take the list above, (I dropped 3 venoms and the haywire on the CTC and exchanged for 3 Ravagers with Night Shields) now without giving away the result, the list did VERY well

Of course, luck and positioning with these things always have a factor to play, but honestly the CTC is very resilient against the standard Riptide Wing set up of Heavy Burst and SMS. I won't waffle on here, but allow you to give the batrep a watch when it drops next week to see it in action.

Warp hunters would be an issue however.

Still a massive fan of Reavers for my anti tank. The trouble is you can't really afford them AND the Artisan... and the Artisan is critical in surviving the Grav trains i'll face.

Even with the HWBs on the talos, this list seems a bit light on AT. I feel like a more traditional, ravager-heavy list is a good example of something that would cause this list problems, as it'd have both the speed to stay away from the CTC, and the firepower to neuter your fleet of warrior boats with relative quickness. Example:

Lhamean in dual cannon venom 75 points
1x5 Kabalite Warriors w/Sybarite(Warlord) in dual cannon venoms 115
1x5 Kabalite Warriors in dual cannon venoms 105
3x 3 Reavers w/Cluster Caltrops 189
3 triple-lance ravagers 375
1 Razorwing Jetfighter w/Dissies & Splinter Cannon 140

Lhamean in dual cannon venom 75 points
2x5 Kabalite Warriors in dual cannon venoms 210
3x 3 Reavers w/Cluster Caltrops 189
3 triple-lance ravagers 375

TOTAL: 1848

This is a pretty basic, standard 2 CAD list, but it's perfectly and demonstrably capable of taking out every one of your kabalite warrior boats from your proposed list in turn 1, leaving you with foot-slogging kabalite warriors(with blasters), and 2 slow area-denial units that won't be able to reliably catch any skimmers that don't want to be caught.

Once the warriors are on foot, you have jinking caltrop reavers, razorwing missiles, and AP5 venoms working to eliminate the remaining warriors, largely ignoring the CTC and Dark Artisan, just playing keep away while using their 30-48" movement and 36" range weapons. I probably wouldn't even start the 6 venoms on the table against your list unless I was going first.

Either way, the abundance of poison shots and rending from the reavers would actually probably be able to deal with the CTC fairly effectively once the bulk of your warriors are dead, which I'd anticipate happening with this list on turn 2 so long as the jetfighter came in.

Or perhaps I'm missing something? Thoughts?

@betraytheworld Very valid and it's a decent list. I don't believe, even with the poison fire that you would end of bringing the Corpse Thief down due to the 3+/4+ FNP re-rolling 1s, but it would certainly give it a good shot!

I guess the question would be the mission and objectives. I would always place my two primary objectives 12" apart in the centre of the board and hold one with the Artisan and one with the CTC in a centre line to ensure they buff each other.

The funny thing is that Dark Eldar are probably one of the few armies that would do well against a CTC but as i'm likely going to be the only Dark Eldar player at the upcoming ITC event, I'm not that worried about facing them! Hahahaha

I do have a much better alternative to this list though and I won't actually take it to the upcoming event, but thought it would be good to share this as a pure Dark Eldar haywire option.

The Spider wrote:

I don't believe, even with the poison fire that you would end of bringing the Corpse Thief down due to the 3+/4+ FNP re-rolling 1s, but it would certainly give it a good shot!

Yeah, you might be right, but target priority is important, and the way I'd do it is plan to eliminate all your obsec troops/transports first, then the dark artisan formation, then the CTC. Since the dark artisan is both providing defensive buffs to the CTC and is easier to kill, it makes sense that you'd eliminate that first before throwing your teeth against the wall that is the CTC.

@betraytheworld Most definitely. I would also use that strategy if I had to face my own list with yours.

@The spider for this list style specifically the haywire is needed, like betray stated even with them you're light on AT. I prefer the splinter cannon overall though, 30 twin linked poison is nothing to sneez at. But I personally like your list. Both formations are tough as nails and combined makes it even more of a pain in the ass to deal with, plus you have speed, obsec, poison, and answers to many tournament builds, should perform very well as long as you don't run into D weapon spam.
Curious what secret list you have up your sleeve as your alternative you mentioned haha

I kinda feel that I have no right to comment on your list, inexperienced as I am, but...

Isn't your AT range an issue?

If as u say u camp the CTC & DA middle of the board, a shooty army could just sit outside your 24" HWB range & ignore them while they focus your Venoms, forcing you to move the CTC, giving up the objectives?

Sorry if a noob question, but you gotta ask to learn right?

@xm0shcryptx My secret list is the list that I will actually be taking to the tournament. It is not friendly and will catch a lot of people off guard. In fact I would say that it improves the above list by about 25% and completely answers all anti tank... Plus the Corpse Thief keep their splinter cannons

@rewind No worries buddy, questioning is always good! It's all about objective placement (something that you as a player CAN control in 40k). I always place my primary objectives (in this style army) in the centre of the board. One dead centre and the other 12" away to its left or right (depending on my likely deployment and cover), so that this means the Dark Artisan and CTC will always be controlling two primary objectives.

This will put the opponent under serious pressure, as if he is unable to remove those units with his fire power (and most armies will struggle to do this), I will be all but guaranteed to hold two objectives at the end of the game. That means I most likely win the game on points, even if he has destroyed the rest of my army

@The Spider So, as much as there will be places out of range of your AT, the majority of the Objectives won't be, which is all that matters?

Your scoring 2 minimum & can reach out to influence the others, which you hope to score with massed Ob. Sec?

There is clear skill gap between the way we both put thought into list building & our general game know how.

I'll be checking out your channel & good luck in the ITC!

Shout out for The Dark City?

You've managed to squeeze in 7 Venoms with this list; have you considered trading Venom(s) for triple dark lance Ravager(s), Lawrence? I feel like that could be a potential avenue for getting more anti armour, while keeping your splinter cannon numbers up through the CTC itself. Trading 2 for 2 gives you more hull points to work with (some on 11/11/10), and the extra dark lances couldbe crucial to support the CTC & DA.

The Spider wrote:

I will be all but guaranteed to hold two objectives at the end of the game. That means I most likely win the game on points, even if he has destroyed the rest of my army

This is precisely why I'd endeavor to kill all the obsec first, so that at the end of the game I can just push stuff onto objectives. Don't even need to beat the CTC, just take their objective away at the end of the game.

Because of how the ITC scores(scored? It may have changed recently.) the extra points from the CTC, I'd probably play keep away from the CTC until round 5 so that he didn't get fed points until it was necessary to take his objective, of which the CTC can only score one. If you remain completely focused on killing nothing but 6 units of warriors in 6 venoms over 5 turns, I'm fairly confident that you'd be able to have killed all of the venoms, all the relevent warriors(don't need to worry about some hiding off in a corner that will never be able to score), and the Dark Artisan. That leaves the ctc scoring 1 objective at a time. You can position yourself in such a manner as to contest 2 objectives, and force the CTC to commit to one or the other with an assault, which you'll lose, but it won't really matter all that much. You'll still be able to outscore at the end with obsec and just more units in general.

hydranixx wrote:

You've managed to squeeze in 7 Venoms with this list; have you considered trading Venom(s) for triple dark lance Ravager(s), Lawrence? I feel like that could be a potential avenue for getting more anti armour, while keeping your splinter cannon numbers up through the CTC itself. Trading 2 for 2 gives you more hull points to work with (some on 11/11/10), and the extra dark lances couldbe  crucial to support the CTC & DA.

I feel the problem with trading venoms away for ravagers is you either lose Obsec entirely, or the ability to get your footslogging troops to points without being bombarded and that's as big a deal. To be fair, I haven't actually tried footslogging Kabalites but i just feel the idea is simply so dubious i've never given it credence.

@betraytheworld Indeed, but it will come down to who has last turn of the game and I should be holding 2 primary as you are also unlikely to kill the Artisan. Plus let's not forget the considerable firepower of my own venoms. Your bikes etc would be dead, as would any units on the ground. It would be an interesting game, if played by two people of equal skill.

@rewind Thanks buddy! I'll start shouting at The Dark City too.

@hydranixx Funnily enough, that is exactly what I did do in an upcoming battle report again riptidewing wing, drone net and Stormsurge support. I dropped 3 venoms and used splinter on the CTC instead. This gave me the points for 3 ravagers with night shields. This list performed VERY well, against an extremely competitive Tau list. I won't give away the result, but you can watch the batrep when it drops next week if you like. The 3 ravagers are a valid option and in fact, I think that list would actually outperform @betraytheworld's counter list in this instance.

The Spider wrote:

I should be holding 2 primary as you are also unlikely to kill the Artisan. Plus let's not forget the considerable firepower of my own venoms. Your bikes etc would be dead. It would be an interesting game, if played by two people of equal skill.

I don't think the artisan would be that difficult to kill. Insofar as your own venoms, I wasn't really considering them too much because I didn't expect them to have much to shoot at. I'd basically hide all my bikes as best I could to start, and none of them can hurt anything else in my army at the start. Further, since your anti-tank is all shorter range than mine, I basically get a free turn of shooting at you during your approach. And this is assuming you go first. If I go first, I'll basically get 2 turns of unanswered shooting at you. So assuming your venoms get to shoot anything at all is sort of wishful thinking.

But now you've intrigued me. I honestly don't think it would be a fair matchup between players of equal skill. I think equally skilled opponents would end up heavily favoring the ravager list. Where are you from, Spider?

I travel a lot, and may make a stop to play if you're somewhere in the vicinity of places I go frequently.

@betraytheworld Hahaha - fair enough! Again I would also argue that I could play the hiding game with my venoms. It will all come down to the board and set up.

Incidentally, I wouldn't take the 7 venom list, I would take the triple ravager list and keep splinter on the CTC. So in summary, 1 Lhamean venom, 3 warrior venom, 1 CTC (with splinter) and 1 Artisan which is the exact list I used in a battle report that I will release next week. This really sorts out the ranged anti tank issue and I think your list would struggle to beat that, as I have the same range as you.

I'm based in London! Always up for games

The Spider wrote:

Incidentally, I wouldn't take the 7 venom list, I would take the triple ravager list and keep splinter on the CTC. So in summary, 1 Lhamean venom, 3 warrior venom, 1 CTC (with splinter) and 1 Artisan which is the exact list I used in a battle report that I will release next week. This really sorts out the ranged anti tank issue and I think your list would struggle to beat that, as I have the same range as you.

Well, whether my list would struggle against some fabled list I've not yet reviewed is really not relevent, since the sole source of our banter in this thread is based on the original list you posted. So, if you're saying that, not knowing what list or faction I'd be playing, that you don't feel confident enough in your original list to have selected that as the list to play, then you and I are in complete agreement that we wouldn't feel confident in said list, and I think we've reached a logical stopping point for our debate.


P.S. But, to be clear, I do certainly concede that, in accordance with your assertion, logic dictates that a different/better/stronger list would be more difficult for me to beat.

@betraytheworld Hahaha! That's fighting talk! No, I would happily play you with the original list if that is what you wanted. Having said that, as I mentioned in the original post, this is NOT the list that I will take and in fact I presented the list as a time that I would consider placing Haywire on the CTC, given our conversation in another thread.

Remember, we are still in disagreement over the haywire and personally I wouldn't go to a tournament with Haywire CTC. I've tried it before and didn't like it.

Seems like you're based in the states though, so that may be quite a hike, however I will be attending the LVO in February with my Dark Eldar (no it will not be the list above, but it will be 'pure' Dark Eldar), and I will happily show you the end of my Archon's blade there if you're attending

The Spider wrote:

Seems like you're based in the states though, so that may be quite a hike, however I will be attending the LVO in February with my Dark Eldar (no it will not be the list above, but it will be 'pure' Dark Eldar), and I will happily show you the end of my Archon's blade there if you're attending

That actually sounds like a lot of fun, and I PLAN to go, but haven't purchased my ticket yet, so I might not be able to if they sell out. We'll definitely have to meet up and play a friendly game as long as I go.

If/when I purchase my ticket, I'll let you know so we can solidify a day/time to try to get our game in. Hopefully by then we'll have an all new DE codex, and we can play using rules we both enjoy even more!

P.S. If we have a new codex, I won't hold you to using your list from this thread, haha.

@betraytheworld That would be awesome if you could make it buddy! I will be there for sure and yes, I so hope we have a new Codex to play with!!!

I'm slightly concerned that we won't given the recent dry up in Codexes and that we may not have anything until they release the new ruleset next year... Time will tell I guess.

If you do make it to the LVO then PM me here and we'll arrange a game and beer

The Spider wrote:

If you do make it to the LVO then PM me here and we'll arrange a game and beer

Will do!

This seems a little off topic, but have you considered Heat lances?
I've switched to using heat lances on my talos as I've all but given up on using dark lances for AT (it really doesn't get the job done). The range limitation surprising hasn't been an issue, if anything it just encourages running on the first turn which has usually worked out.

Heat lances are 5 points cheaper per talos compared to the haywire, and are good against all targets.

@seshiru I've always like Heat Lances as it goes. My issue with them on the CTC is that the melta range is 9" and that is about the charge range that you want... So do you fire and wreck a tank/transport or go for the assault? It's a tough call. It would make Imperial Knoghts nervous about charging you though! And as you say, you can always opt to run if not in range etc

I just like the 30 twin linked poison. With so many bikes and flying monstrous creatures around, it is brutal!

Well to be fair you can wreck the transport and then charge the disembarked passengers, but I don't disagree on the poison shots being a great choice.

EDIT: have to get the math in there, 5 twin-linked haywire bs 3 shots have a 72.77% chance to wreck a 3 HP vehicle with no save (which includes the rare possibility of double immobilized). A vehicle with a 4+ cover / invul would be 36.39% chance, 5+ cover/ invul would be 48.50% chance. Not that those numbers are the only factor of course.