How much you can jam into Purge Cotorie?

Hello Dark City! Here's a little question concerning our new and... "cool", i guess, Start Collecting! formation. From the first point of view, it is a nice stuff for beginners and some players with little experience, but it is not the thing for most, as we heard it in Splintermind podcast. However, my friends in russian meta started to think how much you can put extra units in Purge Cotorie. And sometimes their ideas are just... beyond the laws of this mortal realm.

My personal question is concerning about Archon from this formation. To be more precise - the Court of Archon. The wording of Retuine says:

Quote :

For each Archon included un a Detachment, the Detachment can include a Court of the Archon that does not take up a slot in Force Organisation chart

If I'm not mistaken, formations are still can be Detachments of their own. You can argue about that "there is no slots and FOC inside a formation" but still. Can we take in such a case the Court in Purge Cotorie? If so, does they recieve such bonus from this formation.

The other question is about a kabalites. In recent FAQ GW (curse them for such wording, no, really, it's a pain to work with such fixes even in English speaking communities, now just imagine when a ton of non-english speakers try to translate them and each sees them the way they like) said that in Raiding Party formation we can upgrade the Kabalites into Trueborn.
So, the second question - if whis works in one case, can it work here?

Thank you for your time and opinions!

If it works in one formation, it works in them all IMO.

Simply put - where battlefield role is concerned (in CAD) a unit filling a particular battlefield role slot has to have that role. Therefore, Trueborn cannot fill Troop slot.

In formation, where battlefield role is irrelevant, you can use any and all upgrades that Datasheet lets you. Ergo Purge Coterie Kabalite Warriors can be upgraded to Trueborn.

There is a whole thread about the purge coterie here:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t13993p200-start-collecting-dark-eldar-incoming

Can we take in such a case the Court in Purge Cotorie?

Yes.

If so, does they recieve such bonus from this formation.

Probably. Talk to your opponent or TO.

[Paraphrasing] Can Trueborn be taken in a Purge Cotorie.

Yes.

Well I dont think there is anything suggesting you cannot. You certainly do not break any rules since:

BRB - Formations: Formations are a special type of Detachment,...

Dark Eldar Codex - Court of the Archon: For each Archon included in a Detachment, the Detachment can include a Court of the Archon that does not take up a slot on the Force Organisation chart.

EDIT: I did not find any ruling on whether Formation includes the whole detachment or if Formation are only the units listed and the rest of the detachment (e.g. dedicated transports) are not part of the Formation. Only the Detachment. However - since Formations are a special type of Detachment, it can be argued that the formation is detachment and detachment is the formation and cannot be cut in parts. Therefore its unclear whether Court or any dedicated transport bought would get the bonus.

EDIT 2: I know that a lot of people play Dire Avenger Shrine formation so their Dedicated Wave Serpent gets the formation bonus of +1 BS...

Any thoughts on that?

aurynn wrote:

EDIT 2: I know that a lot of people play Dire Avenger Shrine formation so their Dedicated Wave Serpent gets the formation bonus of +1 BS...

The Eldar FAQ specifically said you do get the +1 BS, which makes sense because they are part of the formation.

Well I guess that settles that part at least - ruling that confirms buying DTs in Formations and Formation benefit for them.

Maximum capacity is:

1 Archon
1 Court of the Archon
1 Unit of Warriors OR Trueborn
1 Unit of Reavers
1 Raider (Fast attack)
1 Venom (Archon's DT)
1 Raider OR Venom (DT for the Warriors)
1 Raider, Venom, or Tantalus (DT for the Court)

If you want to really push it you could include a Tantalus as the DT for the Court

Actually a tantalus with preferred enemy... 12 BS4 S5 AP2 shots? Costs as 5 scatterbikes right? ... can it have splinter racks?

It costs just under 2 naked Ravagers and sadly can't take splinter racks.

Edited

Hmm. Now I'm curious how well a 1000 pt army consisting entirely of a Purge Coterie and a Grotesquerie would work.

Considering it has a grotesquerie in a game with that low of a point value, I'd wager mighty well.

tegs wrote:

Hmm.  Now I'm curious how well a 1000 pt army consisting entirely of a Purge Coterie and a Grotesquerie would work.

I have tried the Purge Coterie although one game with another CAD and one with a dark artisan instead of the Grotesquerie at 1000 pts.
Won two games against a non competitive Tau list fielded by a guy that usually plays Crons.

The biggest issue is the fact the archon had to be physically on the table to draw LOS to get the formation buff - being embarked on anything means he cant point out the target...

Wuh?
Of course you can.

"Open-topped Transports do not have specific Fire Points. Instead, all passengers in an Open-topped Transport can fire, measuring range AND LINE OF SIGHT from any point on the hull of the vehicle."

That's telling you how to use a fire point - not that you can use the fire point for LoS in general

Yes, but they tell you that you can draw Line of Sight from anywhere on the hull of a Transport vehicle.

The argument is that this specifically applies to shooting attacks and this ability is not a shooting attack.

I agree with Squidmaster, it tells you how to measure line of sight.
And logically if it's enough to point a gun, it's enough to point a finger in my opinion.
Also, as somebody else aptly stated our transports are flying balconies.
If that's not enough to convince your opponent, it's probably not worth playing him?

Edit: The FAQ bit that said a unit in a transport is virtually not on the battlefield, wasn't it in an FAQ for another army?
Did it say anything about open transports or line of sight?

Edit 2: The owner of my local GW says so too, whatever that's worth

For the record, I absolutely agree that Archons should be able to do this from an open-topped vehicle but RAW I don't believe they can.

From the section on Fire Points:
"Ranges and line of sight are measured from the Fire Point itself."

Other sentences in that section specify shooting and psychic powers, but that sentence doesn't have any such limiter, and it's under the Vehicle->Transports section so it isn't in a section dedicated to a particular phase or action. It should reasonably be interpreted as a general case rule.

There is definitely wiggle room to argue the point, but I'm pretty far on the RAW side of things and even I think that's excessive.

tegs wrote:

From the section on Fire Points:
"Ranges and line of sight are measured from the Fire Point itself."

Other sentences in that section specify shooting and psychic powers, but that sentence doesn't have any such limiter, and it's under the Vehicle->Transports section so it isn't in a section dedicated to a particular phase or action.  It should reasonably be interpreted as a general case rule.

There is definitely wiggle room to argue the point, but I'm pretty far on the RAW side of things and even I think that's excessive.

I think you're being somewhat selective. The quote you provided is preceded by the sentence "A Fire Point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle can fire shooting weapons (or use witchfire psychic powers)". The paragraph is discussing the procedure for doing so and I don't think you can really argue that it can be extended to a general rule for LOS.

Plus as already stated, special rules (like an ethereals ability or the archons PE rule) can only be used when actually on the table and can no longer be measured from the hull.