BetrayTheWorld's Last TDC Army List

For those of you that do not know, I'm retiring from TDC. As a farewell, I give you this list, which is a derivative of the list I used to make it into the top 15% of 2 national level tournaments(The Las Vegas Open and Adepticon), and a link to my thread explaining why I'm leaving, here: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t14164-betraytheworld-retiring-from-tdc .

It's got a couple modifications to it, in an effort to keep up with the times, like the fact that Iyanden is now considered legal.

1 Eldar CAD:
1 Farseer w/singing spear 105 (Warlord)
1 Eldrad Ulthran 195
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes 102
1x 5 Wraithguard w/D-scythes 210
3x 3 Vaul's Wrath Batteries with vibro cannons 270
1x Aegis Defense Line 50

1 Iyanden CAD:
3x Spiritseers 210
1x Baharroth 170
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes 102
1x 3 Vaul's Wrath Batteries with Shadow Weavers 90
1x 2 Vaul's Wrath Batteries with Shadow Weavers 60

1 Grotesquerie
1x Haemonculus w/Stinger Pistol 75
2x 3 Grotesques 210
TOTAL: 1849

This list generates 13 warp charge, and is a bit complex to use. The goal is to get gate of infinity, so that you can teleport your deathstar made up of characters + d-scythe wraithguard around the table killing things with ignores cover D templates and psychic powers. But the MAIN objective is gate of infinity, so you will basically throw all your dice at that until you get it. Start with Eldrad, rolling all his dice on sanctic, and you will get the power you need roughly 67% of the time. If you don't get it, keep rolling on sanctic through as many psykers as it takes to get it once, starting with spiritseers and finishing off with the Farseer. If you follow these instructions, that makes your chance of success in getting gate of infinity roughly 95%.

Now, in the majority of the time, when rolls AREN'T completely screwing you, you get GOI on eldrad, then roll the farseer on fate hoping for fortune, and roll spiritseers on a combination of battle and telepathy. I'd decide based upon my opponent's army makeup if having 3 instances of psychic shriek was more valueable, or if chancing trying to get +1 armour on my deathstar to give the wraithguard a 2+ was more valuable. In most cases, I'd suspect I'd choose the 3 psychic shrieks. The powers you want in your deathstar are Gate of Infinity, Cleansing flame, Sanctuary, Psychic Shriek, Fortune, Eldritch Storm, and protect/Jinx. There is so much redundancy in this list, you'll quite often have 80% of that, plus extra shrieks in other units. The Haemonculus goes with the deathstar to provide his -1 Leadership aura around them. More often than not, I ended up having 3+ rerollable invuln saves on my deathstar with a list very close to this. The 3+ invulns are almost guaranteed due to how many rolls you'll probably put on sanctic, but you'll have fortune very slightly less than 50% of the time.

Now, here comes the true impact of this list: Deployment. The entire point of the list is area denial to counter deep strike lists, assaulty lists, and shooty lists. How, you say? Well, the bulk of my models are made up of artillery and gun crews, which we all know are T7 vs. shooting as long as there is at least 1 artillery weapon in the unit. These units are EXTREMELY cheap for what they do, so you can basically fill your deployment zone with them pretty easily. I've done all the measurements and put the models on the table, and know that they can fill an entire deployment zone, preventing your opponent from deep striking into your backfield, or even turbo-boosting or flying into your backfield. This can often present a serious problem for opposing flyers who have very rigid movement requirements, meaning they often end up having to leave the table after only 1 round of firing.

In games where you're able to place the objectives, I place my objective in my own deployment zone as far towards my own table edge as legally allowed, placing it so that multiple units in my deployment zone are scoring it, so that if my front line is assaulted and flees, I still have control of the objective and they're unable to consolidate far enough to contest it. I place my second objective as close as legally allowed to the first, typically required to be in neutral territory. I also intersperse my grots in between my artillery batteries. This serves 2 purposes: 1. They're counter-assault units that move forward to engage any assault units that move within threatening range, and 2. While there, they benefit from a cover save from every direction(4+ in the front, 5+ from every other angle), on top of their natural feel no pain. What this means is that it's virtually impossible for an opponent to EVER take the objective in your deployment zone, since there simply aren't enough turns for them to move across the table and successfully assault and defeat 3 layers of defenders. It further is incredibly difficult for them to even get linebreaker, though it ends up being more manageable than obtaining your objective.

There are enough models here to fill your deployment zone regardless of deployment zone type, as all deployment types actually have the exact same area available for each side's deployment. Below is a graphic showing how I'd generally deploy such a force. The graphic doesn't include terrain, for which you'd have to make sensible adjustments like not putting a vibro cannon directly behind a LoS blocker. My graphics aren't to scale. Just know that the models themselves are enough to make it impossible for anything short of an imperial assassin to get into your backfield, as long as you use your spacing. Also, the location of the ICs doesn't necessarily represent where they'd be in the units, just WHAT units they'd be with. Generally I'd put whatever IC has the best save out front, particularly if they have eternal warrior, like Baharroth. Baharroth is generally out front on the deathstar with his 2+ save. If someone fires weapons that have AP2, I will generally have both Eldrad and a couple less important models placed equidistant from Baharroth so that I get to pick who the "look out sir" wounds go to.

IGNORE THE UNITS IN THE WHITE AREA ABOVE THE LEGEND, FORGOT TO DELETE THOSE!


IGNORE THE UNITS IN THE WHITE AREA ABOVE THE LEGEND, FORGOT TO DELETE THOSE!

Now, once you understand the deployment basics, you're using your mostly static formation to stop the opponent from taking your backfield objective or the midfield objective closest to your static formation. Think of the units of batteries as an immobile body, while the grots are the arms it uses to reach out and touch/manipulate things/units, or score objectives.

The highly mobile deathstar is your skirmisher and main destroyer unit, teleporting around firing at things and watching them melt to ranged D and ranged psychic powers. It's also no slouch in CC, and most people in my experience won't bother assaulting it, though they SHOULD, probably. But it puts out 5d3 strength D wall of death hits as overwatch, so if they DO assault you, they'll probably have to commit 2 units to it. Either way, unlikely to happen, so just jump around and kill things protecting objectives.

Then you turbo-boost stock jetbikes around to capture objectives for you. I generally keep a couple units in reserves so that if I face a smart opponent who targets my obsec right at the start, he can't get it all. Now, obviously, you want to keep them alive as long as possible. However, in a non-killpoint game, they're 51 point sacrifices; 48" fire and forget missiles that can and SHOULD grab you a quick point any time they can. If you have the option between a point where you live, and a point where you die, always choose life, but if it's score and die, or don't score and live, scoring is the better option 90% of the time.

Anyhow, I hope someone gets some enjoyment out of this list. Once again, if you're interested in why I'm leaving, the thread is here: ( http://www.thedarkcity.net/t14164-betraytheworld-retiring-from-tdc ), however it's been locked from further discussion, which I found out right before posting this.

To the mods: Please, in the most polite way possible, don't post explanations of your take on me leaving in this thread if I'm not allowed to respond to it without the thread being locked. I'd like to keep this thread open for discussion of my lists and goodbyes from friends and colleagues: Thanks in advance.

To be clear: I am not trying to inflame this situation, or disrespect and bait the mods, so to the general public: please keep any responses civil and about this list, or as a goodbye to me that's not disrespectful towards the mods. I don't want them to lock this thread and take away your opportunity to get a last word in with me. Thanks for all the interaction over the past 3-4 years, good luck, and I hope to see you guys around!

Is there a specific reason for the Vibro cannons I am missing over the shadow weavers?

Massaen wrote:

Is there a specific reason for the Vibro cannons I am missing over the shadow weavers?

When all 3 hit, they're S9 AP2, so they're good anti-tank. On average, 2 hit making them S8 AP3. If you use guide on them, you're all but guaranteed S9. Basically, they're stationary anti-vehicle batteries, while the shadow weavers are S6 wounding against initiative for anti-infantry, or the occasional light vehicle, but they're generally not great vs. armour. Furthermore, vibro cannons are pinning, which synergizes with the -1 leadership penalty from the grotesquerie, and the potential horrify/terrify on your various psykers.

Generally, if all prior psychic rolls go according to plan, I'd roll each spiritseer like this: roll 1 on telepathy - if I get invis or terrify, keep it and roll again on telepathy. If I don't, swap it for shriek and roll the second one on battle fishing for protect, destructor, or horrify.

This is basically a type of "freakshow" list that doesn't completely lean on being a "freakshow" list, and it only uses the damage power that isn't hampered by fearless/ATSKNF: Psychic Shriek. When paired with 48" T7 pinning weapons, it can be quite frustrating for opponents.

Given the deployment of the vibro cannons, would 3x2 D cannons be better than 3x3 vibro cannons though?

Massaen wrote:

Given the deployment of the vibro cannons, would 3x2 D cannons be better than 3x3 vibro cannons though?

No, because D-cannons are 55 points each instead of 30 points each. The intent behind choosing vaul's wrath batteries to begin with is that you get a large gun platform plus 2 infantry for 30 points, so it can cover a lot of territory for a low cost.

Remember, the units on the deployment map are NOT to scale. I put them with the ICs they'd be with, and in the general area/configuration they'd be in, but the gaps you see on the table won't exist, there is no more than 2 inches of clear space anywhere in your deployment zone, and that's an important part of this list.


EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention in my original post that the grots get to go to ground for free in their first turn for a 2+ cover save with 5+ FnP in turn 1, since as soon as turn 2 starts, they become fearless and immediately are no longer considered to have gone to ground.

going to miss you betraytheworld!! must ask, how would you bring that list down to a 1500 points?

vidyadhara wrote:

going to miss you betraytheworld!! must ask, how would you bring that list down to a 1500 points?

Thanks, I'll miss you guys too! As for bringing this down to 1500, that's actually a pretty tall order. You COULD change eldrad to a basic farseer, drop the 60 point shadow weaver squad, drop 2 spiritseers, drop the stinger pistol from the haemonculus, and switch the D-scythes to D-cannons on the wraithguard. That'd put you right at 1500.

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That said, whether it's worth running at that point is another question, and depends on what you're using it for. You can still probably mostly nullify deep strikers into your backfield, but without the psychic redundancy, you end up with only an 84% chance each game of getting Gate of Infinity. That still seems pretty good, right? Well, sort of.

In any given game, it has a pretty good shot of working out for you. But if you're playing in a tournament that has several rounds, like say, 6 rounds, the odds are that 1 of those 6 games you're not going to get Gate of Infinity, which is going to make that unit expensive, awkward and unwieldy for that 1 game that you don't get it, which will probably cause a loss on that particular game. It actually doesn't seem like a big difference, since the 1500 list is 84% chance of success, and the 1850 has a 95% chance of success. It's only 10%, but it's more important than it appears when you calculate it out over multiple games, as is the case in a tournament.

A 16% chance of failure means, on average, you will fail once every 6 games, which makes you only 35% likely to get through 6 games without ever failing a single game.

A 5% chance of failure means, on average, you will fail only once every 20 games, which makes you 74% likely to get through 6 games without ever failing a single game.

The 1500 list also loses the D-scythes ignores cover ability. Bearing all this in mind, if I was playing a small, non-GT tournament or just a pickup game or two, the 1500 list would be ok, but I'd probably honestly just make a completely different list at 1500. The same basic principles can be applied to an alternative list. Maybe something like this:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CAD
Farseer 100
2x 5 Striking Scorpions 170
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes 102
3x 3 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries - Vibro Cannons 240
Aegis Defense Line 50

CAD 2
Baharroth 170
2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes 102
3x 1 Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries - Shadow Weavers 90

Seer Council:
Farseer w/Singing Spear 105
Farseer w/Singing Spear 105
7 Warlocks w/ 4 Singing Spears 265

TOTAL: 1499

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You'd still deploy in basically the same way, substituting the striking scorpions for the grotesques. The shadow weavers are taken in units of 1 gun and 2 infantry so that you can spread them out further to stop larger backfield deep strikes like terminators and drop pods.

Psychic rolls handled the same as before: Continue rolling till you get GOI. Start with the first council farseer, then second, then warlocks, then non-council farseer. This redundancy gives you roughly 95% chance of getting it. Instead of using D-scythes, you're using singing spears en masse, which aren't AS good, but there still pretty baller. 12" range, S9 against vehicles and fleshbane against everything else.

Usually you'll end up with GOI on one of your first 2 farseers, leaving you to roll for fate powers, telepathy, runes of battle, etc.

I generally try to get GOI, Sanctuary, Fortune, and Psychic shriek on my deathstar. If I can get at least GOI, Sanctuary, and fortune with the first 2 farseers, the last farseer doesn't join the deathstar. I instead use the last farseer to take 3 primaris powers and sit in the backfield: Guide, Prescience, and Psychic Shriek. From the backfield, this farseer will make 2 units of vibro cannons twin-linked each turn, making them each pump out 3 S9 attacks per turn. Any units that come within assault range of said vibro cannons will be in range of psychic shriek.

Sorry that this is so complicated. There are a whole lot of if/then scenarios. But once you learn them all, your game will speed up significantly. Starting out, expect this list to take way longer than normal as you familiarize yourself with generating and using a lot of different psychic powers together. Your psychic phase should be, by far, your longest phase, and likely at least tied for most damaging.

A couple of questions and some rules that might cause some issues.

Do all the Spiritseers join the Deathstar, or do they only join if they get a desirable power? If they all join the Deathstar, what is the point of multiple Psychic Shrieks, as the unit wouldn't be able to cast it more than once?

Is the purpose of Baharroth to avoid scatter on the Gate of Infinity? If the FAQ ruling about Warp Talons is finalised, which negates a rule (that doesn't mention reserves) working with Gate of Infinity because the unit isn't coming from reserves a problem? I presume that would also nullify Baharroth providing no scatter deep strike.

Kantalla wrote:

Do all the Spiritseers join the Deathstar, or do they only join if they get a desirable power? If they all join the Deathstar, what is the point of multiple Psychic Shrieks, as the unit wouldn't be able to cast it more than once?

As shown in the deployment graphic, in best case scenario, meaning if Eldrad gets GOI, only 1 spiritseer joins the deathstar. This will happen roughly 67% of the time. When this occurs, you likely take psychic shrieks on all the spiritseers(and of course taking the one with invis or terrify in the deathstar), and put 2 in the backfield, as shown in the deployment graphic. This will allow them to shriek units that approach your line in an effort to assault.

Kantalla wrote:

Is the purpose of Baharroth to avoid scatter on the Gate of Infinity? If the FAQ ruling about Warp Talons is finalised, which negates a rule (that doesn't mention reserves) working with Gate of Infinity because the unit isn't coming from reserves a problem? I presume that would also nullify Baharroth providing no scatter deep strike.

Honestly, I've seen a lot of people misreading this FAQ, and the codex rule. I don't know why so many people have misread it, as it is pretty clear. The FAQ itself says "RESERVES", and the rule in question, that you're saying doesn't mention reserves actually DOES mention reserves, and is right here, copied and pasted directly from the book, in all it's glory.

CSM CODEX wrote:

Warpflame Strike: Immediately after a unit of Warp Talons
has arrived from reserve by Deep Strike, all enemy units
within 6" count as having been hit by a weapon with the
Blind special rule.

And the FAQ question in particular was specifically about whether you count as arriving from reserves any time you deep strike, because, per the book, you do. If you "follow the rules for deep strike", you must put your unit in deep strike reserve before deep striking onto the table, which, without this FAQ would have meant that even when using something like gate of infinity, you would be "arriving from deep strike reserve" because placing the unit into deep strike reserve was part of the deep strike rules, and GOI instructs you to use the rules for deep strike. Here is the FAQ question and answer for reference:

GW FAQ Draft wrote:

Q: Does a unit always enter the game from Reserves when Deep Striking? The rules for Deep Striking seem to imply that being the case, even when a unit is already on the table. As an example, does a unit of Warp Talons that is using Gate of Infinity trigger its Warpflame Strike each time they use the psychic power?
A: Not unless explicitly stated – in the example you use, Gate of Infinity has the unit arrive anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike. This doesn’t mean that it goes into Deep Strike Reserve, or that you have to make a Reserve Roll for the unit and so on, and it means that you don’t get to use the Warpflame Strike each time you do this.

So, just to further clarify this, this means, off the top of my head, the following things WILL stop scatter, even with gate of infinity:

Teleport Homers
Baharroth
Belial, Grand Master of the Deathwing

Things that will NOT function due to this ruling(because they depend on arriving from deep strike reserve and NOT simply deep striking) are:

Webway Portals won't stop scatter from things like Gate of Infinity
Baharroth & Swooping hawks grenade packs won't trigger from gate of infinity.
Warpflame Strike from warp talons won't trigger from gate of infinity.

I hope that helps to clarify things. Any other questions?

I have to admit I was basing my rule wording for Warp Talons on Battlescribe, which words it differently:

Quote :

Warpflame Strike: Immediately after entering via Deep Strike, all enemy units...

If it is different in the CSM Codex then I can see that might justify maintaining the distinction between Deep Strike and Deep Strike reserves.

Just for the sheer comedy of it, I was imagining a similar list, if Baharroth didn't avoid the scatter with a D-Cannon battery in place of the Wraithguard.

Any other units than the Vaul's Wrath that have a similar footprint to cost you can think of?

Kantalla wrote:

Any other units than the Vaul's Wrath that have a similar footprint to cost you can think of?

Not for Eldar, but you could do this even easier, and to a greater degree with ork mek guns, using the basic kannons, as they come in units of up to FIVE guns instead of 3, with up to 5 men per gun instead of 2, at 18 points instead of 30(extra men are 3ppm). The basic cannons also have 2 profiles: S8 AP3 Heavy 1, or S4 AP5 Heavy 1, Blast. Most of the time you'll probably use the first profile, but the second would be helpful vs blobs of GEQ.

Also, without using using guide and/or prescience on the vaul's batteries, the ork batteries end up putting out slightly more hits per point than vaul's, despite their BS3(which they get instead of 2 because grots are crew instead of orcs). One 90 point ork artillery unit hits 2.5 times, while 1 90 point Eldar artillery unit hits 2 times.

Artillery is by far the best unit type to do this with, as it invariably comes with both artillery batteries and crewmen that allows you to spread their footprint, and the artillery rules give the crewment T7 against shooting. So, in my opinion, artillery is the cheapest, toughest unit type available in 40k to do things like this with. Of course, almost all artillery is vulnerable to melee, which is why the strategy is best if you fill your whole deployment zone to stop outflanks/deep strikes, and support your front line with decent(ish) melee units.

The thing is, your melee babysitters don't really have to "win" against whatever comes at your line. They just need to be a speed bump for a round or two, and layers of defenders makes it mathematically impossible for assaulters to chew through enough units at that point.(Unless your opponent assaults first turn and beats your counter-assault units, then it's not impossible, but still difficult.

If anyone else happens to use this list, or a derivative of it, I'd love to hear how it does for you.