gangs of Commorragh!?

Maybe if we're lucky.......a certain Baron?

that'd be really lucky

It would be logical. Taking away Rules of special Charakters that don't have a model so no one can copy them. And then working on campaigns that introduce the character again and includes the rules.

RedRegicide wrote:

Hellions that can jink would be cool

Not really. They would practically lose their shooting coz everyone will be jinking them all the time and their CC is not that great. Just make them 10pts a model and they are good. :-)

Or 13 pts, skyfire option, let champ have Agoni or power weapon and HWG and make them troops. :-D

Do they really suck in close combat? The drug and power from Pain could make them a nice close combat unit, couldn't it?

they can get to S6 with the right drug, furious charge and using their +1S cc weapon. sounds awesome but i would like an extra attack on them like in 5th

Calling it now: if hellions get new rules, via formation or whatever, they are going to have the ability to HnR at I5. Still no grenades tho.

Well I think they are actually the worst unit in the book. However DSing (best T4-5) so they already have PFP, FC and Fearless along with a good drug roll can make them tolerable and good to hurt MCs. They are low priority target too. But at 10 men, they are kinda expensive for what they can do compared to other units and their extra options are bad. What would you rather take? 6 bikes with Cluster caltrops for 130-ish or 10 Hellions? The -1A they got this edition is a bad hit.

No grenades I can live with but... Everything they do can someone else do better.

They aren't, and I need people to stop saying they are because it totally erases the actual worst unit in the book: Bloodbrides.

If you're taking a 10 body unit of hellions you're doing it wrong. 20 bodies or bust. Anything less than than 15 and everything but bloodbrides are better. The only reason to take hellions is the combo of HnR and a 20 wound pool for a Corsair Void Dreamer and Prince. For the points they are the best non-bike HnR vehicle for corsair characters. In order to make Players more killy you need to spend gobs of points, you spent more points and still need more bodies if you opt for Baharroth, and if you take bikes and a void dreamer you're moving bikes at infantry pace.

Hellions are good at 1 thing, and 1 thing only: wrapping paper for mobile, high damage output characters. Hellions come to mind as the worst thing in the book because we don't have any of those.

Bloodbrides don't come to mind because they actually are the worst.

Ah well... Since they were made an upgrade and not an actual standalone unit, I tend to overlook them as DL on Scourges. :-D However I confess I used them once and they were quite good.

I hate to label an unit "worst" and I shouldnt use this with any unit, even bloodbrides. I have Hellions. I love the models. But the truth is that I never played them as a giftbomb wrapping. :-) So out of the roles I tried them for, they were ... well... underwhelming.

Spending 260 pts to wrap a character... I am not even comfortable with using Land Raider with marines... :-) But at least they do have some application.

If we were to sit here and list the "worst" units in the codex, we will be here a while.
Lets just all agree on:
"Everything except warriors, Raiders, Reavers and Venoms".

everything.

I'd use Hellions as beast masters. Fast, cheaper and good fire power.

Skulnbonz wrote:

If we were to sit here and list the "worst" units in the codex, we will be here a while.
Lets just all agree on:
"Everything except warriors, Raiders, Reavers and Venoms".

everything.

The Talos would like a word with you

Ignatius J. Reilly wrote:

Skulnbonz wrote:

If we were to sit here and list the "worst" units in the codex, we will be here a while.
Lets just all agree on:
"Everything except warriors, Raiders, Reavers and Venoms".

everything.

The Talos would like a word with you

Grotesques would also be in line to add their two cents as well.

So, should I be amused or depressed that out of the what, 20+ units there may be some argument for 2 more than the 4 I named as being "not garbage"

So it's Warriors, Venom, Raider, true born, scourges, grotesques, succubus, archon, Lheamean, Ravager, Reaver, arguably the razor wing, mandrake, talos and chronos.
That's not too few.

CptMetal wrote:

So it's Warriors, Venom, Raider, true born, scourges, grotesques, succubus, archon, Lheamean, Ravager, Reaver, arguably the razor wing, mandrake, talos and chronos.
That's not too few.

I wonder what this would look like compared to the Space Marine Codex. I know they get like 10 HQ choices, and another 8 Elites.

CptMetal wrote:

So it's Warriors, Venom, Raider, true born, scourges, grotesques, succubus, archon, Lheamean, Ravager, Reaver, arguably the razor wing, mandrake, talos and chronos.
That's not too few.

And medusae and sslyths.

This is getting Monty Pythonesque.

Clawed fiends, Razorwing flocks, and Voidravens.

Void Ravens? I'm not sure about them...

CptMetal wrote:

So it's Warriors, Venom, Raider, true born, scourges, grotesques, succubus, archon, Lheamean, Ravager, Reaver, arguably the razor wing, mandrake, talos and chronos.
That's not too few.

Not complete garbage doesn't exactly equal "Good". Against the 40k meta as a whole, most of this is just "meh, it's ok."

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Thesis statement/TLDR:
The only units there that are "Good" in the current 40k meta are Grots, venoms, and reavers. No
other model's rules would be enough to compel a logical, good 40k player to add DE to their
repertoire if they didn't already own DE.

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Everything else on the list, something from another faction can do their job better, cheaper, or both.

Even Talos aren't that great compared to other MCs available to other factions. They're merely "OK".

All these MCs from other factions could kill equal or greater points worth of Talos:

Necron - C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer, Transcendent C'tan
Chaos Daemons - Pretty much every named daemon or daemon prince equipped for combat
Eldar - Wraithknights & Wraithlords
Tau - Ghostkeels, Riptides & Storm surges
Tyranid - Swarmlord, Hive Tyrant, Carnifex

That is the company Talos keeps. Those are the Talos' peers. That is what you're comparing to when you decide whether or not Talos are "Good".

And that's without even considering all of the non monstrous creatures various factions have that can deal with Talos handily, such as a basic space marine with a grav cannon, or walkers.

Comparisons to GMC's are inappropriate, and you ignore the opportunity cost modifier imposed by the 3 detachment limit.

A single talos has more utility than a carnifex or a riptide.

amorrowlyday wrote:

Comparisons to GMC's are inappropriate, and you ignore the opportunity cost modifier imposed by the 3 detachment limit.

A single talos has more utility than a carnifex or a riptide.

There is only 1 GMC in there, and it costs roughly the same as 2 Talos w/Ichor injectors, and will kill them both and ask for seconds. It's a big part of the meta right now, and certainly should be part of the conversation when discussing how anything in the meta is objectively "good".

And Talos having more utility than a riptide??? Really???

A riptide can kill almost anything at long range(including a Talos), is similar toughness to a Talos, can kill almost all non-character infantry or tanks in CC, and gets jetpack mobility. I fail to see how a Talos has more utility.

There is no 3 detachment limit, except in specific tournament formats.

That said, I'm not sure what opportunity cost you're referring to. If you're talking about the opportunity cost of not taking the Talos option when you're already playing DE, thus taking up a very important detachment slot to fill a role the Talos could fill, I'm not arguing that at all. If you're playing DE, by all means, take a Talos if you have a need for one. They aren't BAD, they just aren't objectively GOOD.

What I mean by that is basically my thesis statement in my last post that I worked very hard to highlight so that I wouldn't really have to keep referring back to it. Essentially what I'm saying is this:

If you took all the units from all the factions in 40k that fulfilled a similar job as Talos, I expect that Talos would be somewhere around the middle of the pack in value/cost ratio. That means they're an average unit in the meta, whereas Wraithknights and Scatterbikes are objectively "good" units, being above the average/median in value/cost ratio.

Things like riptides, wraithknights, scatterbikes, grav cannons, farseers, d-scythes, and hornets are things you would consider taking if you had unlimited money, time, and models from all factions because they're "good" and would make almost any list better. Talos, on the other hand, are a perfectly sufficient tool who are more than capable of performing their job, IF you're already a dark eldar player.

There's just no real non-style reason to pick Talos over other MCs available in other factions. They're not bad. They're just not stand out good either.

Of course, as DE players who are accustomed to being starved for decent units, it seems awesome. I hear ratburger tastes like filet mignon when you're starving, though.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Tyranid - Swarmlord, Hive Tyrant, Carnifex

Are you sure?
The Swarmlord and Flyrants sure, but the Carnifex?
Doesn't it lack decent shooting, and lack the ability to stand toe to toe with a Talos?

stevethedestroyeofworlds wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Tyranid - Swarmlord, Hive Tyrant, Carnifex

Are you sure?
The Swarmlord and Flyrants sure, but the Carnifex?
Doesn't it lack decent shooting, and lack the ability to stand toe to toe with a Talos?

It can certainly be equipped for shooting as it can take two twin-linked devourers with brainleech worms, ie the same armament as a Flyrant. And 3 S9, AP2 attacks in melee plus D3 S9 HoW hits is not to be sneezed at.