Grotesquerie, how do you run it?

Lost Vyper wrote:

I used to use Agoniser, but always clahshed with Termies or an IC with a Artificer armor, hence the Scissorhands. Altough, the IC´s usuall have 4/5+ Invl.Save, the option to rend is always nice. Succubus idea seems nice (i don´t own the model, never tried that ), high Initiative AP2 sounds awesome!

An Armor of Misery/Glaive Succubus is pretty cheap, and an absolute beast in combat. Best HQ choice we have

While I agree that the Succi with AoM and Glave is nice, it still costs about 120 pts (if I recall correctly). One of my main issues with the Grots is their survivability, not their damage output. Its true that occasionally they will get into a combat with an enemy with 2+ and get "shut down", but that is my fault for positioning poorly.

The Succi doesnt add any durability to the unit, and 3/4 games you are playing ATSKNF marines so your LD debuff doesnt do much. For the points of the Succi you could grab an Abby with a special weapon a fourth Grot for the squad, AND an empty Venom. I guess you can tell which method I have been leaning towards

Haven't played with it yet, but my plan for my Grotesquerie is to have one unit of 3-4 Grots with an AoM Succubus and a Farseer. Freakish Spectacle stacked with AoM would make for some nasty Psychic Shrieks, with the slim potential to pull something extra nasty like Invisibility.

The other one is the standard Haemy w Scissorhand & Sump, maybe with an Autarch with Banshee Mask so I can surprise flamers/Tau.

Not exactly efficient with points, but should pack a bit of a punch

It's a damn potent punch.

Ynneadwraith wrote:

Haven't played with it yet, but my plan for my Grotesquerie is to have one unit of 3-4 Grots with an AoM Succubus and a Farseer. Freakish Spectacle stacked with AoM would make for some nasty Psychic Shrieks, with the slim potential to pull something extra nasty like Invisibility.

The other one is the standard Haemy w Scissorhand & Sump, maybe with an Autarch with Banshee Mask so I can surprise flamers/Tau.

Not exactly efficient with points, but should pack a bit of a punch

I wonder if there is a harlequin detachment that might work well for the same purpose, this seems like a fun plan but I don't own any craftworld

fisheyes wrote:

While I agree that the Succi with AoM and Glave is nice, it still costs about 120 pts (if I recall correctly). One of my main issues with the Grots is their survivability, not their damage output. Its true that occasionally they will get into a combat with an enemy with 2+ and get "shut down", but that is my fault for positioning poorly.

115 points, though it is 120 if you add the haywire grenade, which is also great

Quote :

The Succi doesnt add any durability to the unit, and 3/4 games you are playing ATSKNF marines so your LD debuff doesnt do much. For the points of the Succi you could grab an Abby with a special weapon a fourth Grot for the squad, AND an empty Venom. I guess you can tell which method I have been leaning towards

Eh, I personally find the Succubus to be worth it. At minimum, you're getting 4 S4 AP2 hits at I8 WS8, which can be buffed up by drugs or PFP. She might not add any durability, but the grotesque meatshields mean she will be able to keep doing her damage for a long time, which was honestly her biggest problem outside of a grotesquerie.
You can split her off if needed to eat troop squads by herself, or give her a HWG to help the unit tear through transports.

I'm back to running a succubus in with my grotesques. She often can easily kill most sergeant type squad leaders. I've found he to lacking against harder hitting HQ models as she's only t3. I still take AoM because it helps with sweeping advances. The haywire grenade can be useful even though I often forget about it.

The rest of the Grotesquerie consists of 4 grotesques in raiders with aether sails. I formerly ran nightshields but, I'm mixing it up. Plus, it saves points. I'm still running the Dark Artisan formation.

t3 is the reason i dont bother with her or an archon. bolters, even autoguns can ruin your day. not to mention eldar and tau firepower...

t5 on the grots or slyth helps but in combat hits are going to hurt her quickly.

Succubus with Grots or Sslyth still benefits from majority toughness, except in a challenge. If you get a bad challenge option, then the Aberration can take it.

Makes sense to me, though I thought that was just in shooting.

the invulnerable save from khymera doesnt work the same does it?

Kantalla wrote:

Succubus with Grots or Sslyth still benefits from majority toughness, except in a challenge. If you get a bad challenge option, then the Aberration can take it.

Exactly.

Saves are on a model per model basis so no the kymeara invuln doesn't spread. Only thing we have access to (via corsairs) that spreads an invuln is the shimmershield.

Jimsolo wrote:

Kantalla wrote:

Succubus with Grots or Sslyth still benefits from majority toughness, except in a challenge. If you get a bad challenge option, then the Aberration can take it.

Exactly.

Here, here!

Ynneadwraith wrote:

Haven't played with it yet, but my plan for my Grotesquerie is to have one unit of 3-4 Grots with an AoM Succubus and a Farseer.

You should be aware that this setup significantly reduces the combat output of the grots because with 5 or more models in their unit, they won't get the extra 2 attacks(on average) per model from rampage. This ends up making the unit as a whole get 6-8 less attacks than it would without the characters.

I think the ideal unit size is 3 or 4(including any characters), which only leaves room for a maximum of 1 character. If you want a unit that acts primarily as a meatshield for your characters rather than a melee threat, I suggest you consider a unit of wraithguard that are T6 and fearless with 3+ armour and D-weapons. You can still get the freakshow leadership penalty simply by putting the haemonculus in the unit with them.

Interesting. I did wonder that. At which point does the 6-8 extra attacks damage output of a psychic shriek and added AP2? From my (amateur) thinking it would probably mean less potential damage, but more reliable damage.

Would a better use (without resorting to W/G as you'll be wasting D shots by being in combat, or lacking a decent assault vector with 'blades) be more of a blob of Grots with the HQs, and then a min 2nd squad to make use of Rampage.

@Ynneadwraith You're only lacking in an assault vector if you didn't buy a WWP which blob grotesques will need anyway.

That said I actively prefer and utilize the blob Grotesques option. Unfortunately you have to shell out 70 over even in order to make up for the loss of rampage. That means 6-7 bodies before the squishy T3 characters. If taking this approach I find a void dreamer to be invaluable, to the degree where I view this approach as supplementing a corsairs list rather than the other way around as it appears on first glance. I also strongly believe that a 5++/FNP is better than a 3+

This purview is why I calculated cost per wound and general survivability for every unit in all 4 of our BB'd Factions. I found that Dark Eldar far and away possess the best and widest variety of candy coatings in the alliance. Grotesques are far and away the best at 11.6 points per wound for T5. Clawed Fiends match that price trading FNP for rage, and I'd argue Sslyths come in second at 12.5 with FNP and technically more overall attacks once we account for the carbines and this sort of build not utilizing the rampage usr on the grots.

Wraithguard are great but they are much too expensive to stick an offensive minded character in their midst when a simple WWP jockey there and the points saved spent elsewhere is wildly more effective.

Even if you have 5-6 model count (including HQs) you'll get rampage after a casualty or 2 on the way in or in CC.
I like an extra grot or 2 for the extra attacks and tankiness.

If you're losing bodies on the way in, or are charging something with 6 bodies that you can't heavily maim or outright kill in 1-2 turns of combat you're using the wrong tool for the job.

amorrowlyday wrote:

Wraithguard are great but they are much too expensive to stick an offensive minded character in their midst when a simple WWP jockey there and the points saved spent elsewhere is wildly more effective.

Ynneadwraith wrote:

Would a better use (without resorting to W/G as you'll be wasting D shots by being in combat...

I actually don't agree with these thoughts. It's an anti-combat unit, rather than an actual CC unit. I've found success with a WWP succubus in a unit of D-scythe wraithguard. You deep strike them in and in 1 turn whack just about anything, including a wraithknight. Then you've got a unit that's very tough Vs. shooting, and no one, including terminators wants to charge you due to your 5d3 AP2 Ignores cover D-strength wall of death overwatch attacks. On average, that's enough to kill 6.5 terminators in overwatch. Anything that manages to get into melee with you, you've got your succubus to mop up with. Which is the perfect place for a shriek farseer who -might- get invisibility. You will rarely, if ever, be tied up in a melee when you don't want to be.

Ah then I see where we are disagreeing and we're going to have to agree to disagree as when I take that tact it's with a gunslinger haemonculus as, since I am a corsairs player, that unit almost definitely has a shadowfield void dreamer in it with either an MPKG or is throwing on aethermancy for breach. By making the barer a Haemy the unit is never forced to be T3 and I get 2-3 precision deepstrikes out of the squad for ~125pt premium over you.

I do see your point though and it's probably the best "counter-charge" unit we have access to albeit without actually having counter-attack.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I actually don't agree with these thoughts. It's an anti-combat unit, rather than an actual CC unit. I've found success with a WWP succubus in a unit of D-scythe wraithguard. You deep strike them in and in 1 turn whack just about anything, including a wraithknight. Then you've got a unit that's very tough Vs. shooting, and no one, including terminators wants to charge you due to your 5d3 AP2 Ignores cover D-strength wall of death overwatch attacks. On average, that's enough to kill 6.5 terminators in overwatch. Anything that manages to get into melee with you, you've got your succubus to mop up with. Which is the perfect place for a shriek farseer who -might- get invisibility. You will rarely, if ever, be tied up in a melee when you don't want to be.

one could sacrifice a single model or cheap unit to that overwatch, then go deep with the main squad

@amorrowlyday In the ITC, and every other tournament I know of, WWPs only work when you are coming from reserves, since that's what WWPs say in their description, so it doesn't work with psychic powers that use deep strike rules.

Unless I'm missing something? Admittedly, I don't know what you mean by MPKG off the top of my head and don't feel like looking.

doriii wrote:

one could sacrifice a single model or cheap unit to that overwatch, then go deep with the main squad

I'm perfectly aware.

Having a single model to sacrifice in the area isn't all that common after a shriek/d-scythe drop, but even if they do, that's why you have the most dedicated, badass close combat IC that DE can muster up in that unit: To get them back OUT of CC. And they're STILL S5, T6 models, so they're not exactly pushovers in CC. They just don't output a lot because of low number of attacks. That's what the Succubus is for.

But again, this isn't something you have to worry a ton about. Most people don't want to die to that wall of death, or they don't realize they're running into such a ridiculous wall of death and they do so with a valuable unit that we'd be all to eager to erase.

WWP explicitly stipulates that it works in ongoing reserve. Both Webway Breach and the Multi-phase key generator explicitly place you into actual on-going reserves, not "arrives using the rules for deepstrike" like Gate of Infinity.

I grant that the Multi-phase Key Generator does contain "arrives using the rules for deepstrike" but without scatter for non-vehicle corsairs units that come out of the portal, but that's not how I'm using it I'm abusing the second half of it's special rules that says that any allied unit that end's their movement phase wholly within 3" of the token is immediately placed in ongoing reserves. At that point the WWP special rules, specifically the bit about applying in ongoing reserves, kick's in and next turn they arrive via deepstrike unrelated to the effect that removed them from the table.

This is legal in every format where corsairs, craftworld, and DE can all be taken in the same list. For what it's worth, and I grant not much with the number of changes in the BRB one between draft and final, GW's explanation for why WWP doesn't interact with moves-and-arrives-as-if-via-deepstrike effects like GoI explicitly allows for what I am doing as legal play.

I couldn't find any ruling on WWP and DS ability situations in the ITC FAQ.

Nor could I, but since the actual cited claim is true but is tangential to what I am doing I did not address it. I assumed they referenced it since I almost exclusively play ITC format, if not with ITC missions.