You need to see this!

Having spent the better part of last night and this morning reading the blogposts on unit efficiency that was posted a few months ago and crunching numbers, I have prepared a gift for all of you. This spreadsheet compares the BASELINE efficiency for every non-HQ unit in the Codex, given the best gear available. There are a couple of rather surprising entries.

Legend Below



DMS: Avg Marines killed in a round of shooting
DMCC: Avg Marines killed in a charge
DRPG: # of Penetrating hits against Rhinos (AV11 shooting, AV10 CC) for the entire game (six turns)
DLRPG: # of Penetrating hits against Land Raiders (AV14) for the entire game (six turns)

Vehicle damage assumes 4+ hit in CC
Yes the second two do include CC attacks in first turn assaults, but lets be honest, that isn't THAT unreasonable.

This assumes no pain tokens, as no unit gets enough to effect offensive ability at game start, the exception is grotesques, who require a character present, and it only makes sense to put a Haemonculus in there. So, yes, they have Furious Charge.

When you read this, do keep in mind that point efficiency will increase as Pain Tokens rack up.

CH: Unit upgrade character, Syren, Hekatrix, Sybartie, etc
BL: Blaster
BP: Blast Pistol
DL: Dark Lance
HL: Heat Lance
VL: Void Lance
AG: Agonizer
NS: Night Shields
FF: Flickerfields
FP: Fusion Pistol
HK: Harlequin's Kiss
SS: Shadowseer
PW: Power Weapon
SH: Scissorhands
LG: Liquifier Gun
NTM: Necrotoxin Missile

If I missed any abbreviations, let me know and I'll add them.

So, let's have a talk about how our favorite units stack up, what surprised us, what we think is important to field. In the mean time, I need a flippin drink.

I'm actually surprised that the Ravager is doing so well versus the Voidraven in generating penetrating hits - that feels off to me, as I seem to recall doing the math myself and not finding it favoring them.

Also - awesome post I'll need to take some time to devour this.

Edit: Hmmm, I disagree with a couple of the loadouts - 4 Blasters and 2 Lances is not Blasterborn, and only 5 Hellions w. Agoniser? People run that?

Huh, what's blasterborn then?

And no, I doubt people run 5 hellions with an agonizer, but it's the most points efficient way to run the unit (Without fail, the most points efficient way to run a unit is to take the minumum number you need for speacial/heavy weaponry, and I throw in a sergeant in case of unwanted CC). Honestly, I think they just kinda suck, unles you get a good roll for combat drugs.

ALSO, IT DOES NOT INCLUDE COMBAT DRUGS!

As to the raven/ravager, 3shots v 2 shots is the key. the Raven is only 1/6 more likely per shot to pen. The whole extra shot the Ravager gets is a big help

Ravager
2shots * .66 chance to hit * .5 chance to Pen on a rhino
2 shots* .66 chance to hit, .33 chance to pen on a LR (luv that Lance rule)

vs.

Raven
2 shot* .66 chance to hit* *.66 chance to pen on a rhino
2 shots *.66 chance to hit* .5 chance to pen on a LR

And this is why I love Voidravens more than Razorwings...

One thing about Flyers - this "stupid" 6" high stand actually negate cover most times (and hence make FF mandatory), so with LoS blocked Ravager is actually slightly weaker.

But I guess AErial Assault helps a bit


Blaster born? Venom, 3 Blasters, that's IMHO combo that actually may do something. Basically You've made overtooled Warrior-like unit (blasters and CC weapons with... Lances?... the duck is that trap?)

When I saw Talos' stats I was like YEEEEEEEAAAAAH!

Then I realised TL HLs have crap range. How's this taken into account? I mean, chances are slim (and variable) they'll pull off a full-powered HL shot every single turn.

Not quite. You see, target priority. Somewhere on Stelek's site was non-WWP list utilising big guys. Basically, beeing toughest thing to shoot out and not having range of their funny pop-guns... yeah. If they would have Lances, probably enemies would love to kill that thing.


What if it get shot at? Well, it's probably one of hardest thing we can field, so this is good... for rest of Your army.

dms: 1.6434, .020
DMCC: .49, .006
DRPG:5.94, .073
DLRPG:3.920, .048

That is quite efficient yes, but I dont like the ow number of shots, and a raider gives another DL shot, which goes along with the theme of the unit.

On the other hand it looks like a real facebeater in a small game!


edit 1 -
And yes, it's tought to get it into position, but when you do.... YEAAAAAAAH!

Also, it's the Talos's CC that nets it most of its kills, not the heat lance.

WWP helps a lot for that.

On the other hand, you will never NEED to kill 20 Land Raiders in one game, it's the POTENTIAL that the system is intereste in.

Give me a second and i'll find the "suggested levels for tournament play"

edit 2 -
The averages (for the entire list) for the top 4 GT lists as of July were

DMS: 21
DMCC: 28
DRPG: 72
DLRPG: 25

Rhino killing is so important because we are playing Mech-hammer 40k these days.

Triple Post Merged - Please read the forum rules and follow them - Baron Tordeck

fenrisnorth wrote:

Huh, what's blasterborn then?

As noted - 3-4 Trueborn 2. Blasters in a Venom/Raider (usually Venom except when I play them)

fenrisnorth wrote:

(Without fail, the most points efficient way to run a unit is to take the minumum number you need for speacial/heavy weaponry, and I throw in a sergeant in case of unwanted CC)

That's the way it works (sometimes) for shooting units.
Assault units in general actual benefit from weight of bodies and shooting units do as well depending on how/what they shoot. Since Hellions are a shooting unit that shoots the weapon they all come with, and also an assault unit, their optimal build is actually a large squad of Hellions - same as with Orks, no one argues that 20-30 Orks is better than 10 even in a point effeciency manner. Same with IG power blobs, same with Lootas, yadda, yadda, yadda.

But surely you must admit that 2 10 man squads of Hellions are better than 1 20 man, if only for the extra champ attack and the extra power weapon/agonizer. There's a difference between being an effective combat unit and just being able to die very very slowly

I disagree on the 2x10 being better than 1x20 for the hellions... there are numerous benefits of the big size that far outway the extra attack

Like?

I really would like to hear. I'm not adamant that MSU (Multiple Small Unit) is better, but I know that when I played Space Marines I did everything I could to get more of Sgt Fisty's brothers into my list, I'm curious what the benefits of taking fewer unit champs are, (I must admit, I do love the thought of ten Grots.)

<----- Trying to relearn the game.

In the case of hellions, they take up less space on the FOC, require more deaths before a LD test (the biggy), shoot just as well, multi charge just as well, benefit more from the Baron, require one less reserve roll...

just off the top of my head

So you're saying they're a shooting unit, rather than a CC unit? Honestly, I looked at those, then down at the scourges, then over at the reavers, then down to the beastmasters, then back to the hellions, and was like "where's the beef?" I'd take Beast packs and scourges over Hellions 9..... no, 10 times out of 10. They just strike me as pretty... Meh. Space on the Force Org isn't an issue for me in the FA section, 20 hellions is a massive footprint, good luck not getting shot, they can't split fire if neccessary, and they can't multicharge as well, (try charging two squads that are 2 feet apart with one Hellion Unit), and one reserves roll could be bad if they don't come in until it's too late. The Ld and the Baron thing are good points though. As I said, I wasn't really trying to convince people to MSU, because the important numbers are the effectiveness of the squad per point it costs, and that will be relatively the same between 5 and 20 models. With smaller squads being slightly more effective PER POINT, because they have a higher concentration of special gear.

@ The Baron, very sorry, I get caught up in typing sometimes and respond to people as I notice their posts. I'll try my hardest to address multiple topics in single posts. It just feels a little awkward, but I'll do it.

All good points - i am 'meh' on hellions as well which is a shame as the models rock!

I would only ever use 1 unit, 15 odd strong with the baron... never more than 1 as they are not that great!

DEpends hellions with a shoot then assault from a big squad is like , ultimate torrent , potentially 40 shots then 60 to 80 attacks depending on drugs.... remember that forcing them to take all those savs at the same time has it's benefits.

Mine were pretty great when I ran a baron list, though I'm starting to think Baron with Quins might be the way to go ....

Sorrowshard wrote:

[...] though I'm starting to think Baron with Quins might be the way to go [...]

I'm interested. Care to elaborate?

Sorrowshard wrote:

DEpends hellions with a shoot then assault from a big squad is like , ultimate torrent , potentially 40 shots then 60 to 80 attacks depending on drugs.... remember that forcing them to take all those savs at the same time has it's benefits.

Mine were pretty great when I ran a baron list, though I'm starting to think Baron with Quins might be the way to go ....

I've run that quite a few times. It is pretty funny, since at that point only Flamers are worrisome for your Harlequins. Any other shooting is basically a waste.

it's several factors really, I believe DE have an issue with reliable AT, bringing some actual melta to the party is the aim here, str4 rending makes them better than beasts in cc too, I have yet to crunch the numbers but I suspect hey outperform Incubi in cc too, my Incubi seem to be woefully hit-and-miss, the baron goes in there nicely and can move along with them without slowing them down, as they can go through terrain like it's not there you can pretty much ensure they have 3+ cover even if your opponent does manage to get through veil. also if your Harlequins end up with AT duty which is likely from my experience the barons str 6-7 certainly helps with reliability on the majority of rear armour.

something odd:

Kabalites DMCC 1,436
Wyches DMCC 1,653

5 Kabalite Warriors (11 Attacks on the Charge) are nearly as deadly in closecombat as 10 Wyches (31 attacks on the charge)?

Am I missing something?

Lol, I knew wyches tend to flail away innefectually, but 1.4 on the charge is lol

Thats got to be an error...

11 attacks, 5.5hits, 1.83 wounds, 0.61 kills

30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, 1.66 kills (no agoniser or drugs)

yes, I'm pretty sure the Kabalites should be .436, and I just brainfarted when typing it in

The only problem with this info is non-assuming of casualties, and I bet range like a few others have noted. However, it keeps me wanting to try a Talos, sure the thing is "slow" but all it needs is cover and it can reliably threaten a 24" bubble (which is bigger than some may think, I donno)

This also proves why I'm scared of losing EL and Blasterborn first 2 turns, lol, sigh.