Scourges and hellions after the FAQ - thoughts and feelings?

aurynn wrote:

And who forbids us to kitbash an Archon on a bike or with wings and play him with Autarch rules?

And what if you want a Blaster? Or a Huskblade? Or PfP? Or, you know, a Dark Eldar HQ?

Tell you what, how about Archons get the wings and jetbikes, and if Eldar players want them on their Autarchs they can use an Archon instead?

aurynn wrote:

Archons are not Autarchs IMO

That would seem to contradict your previous statement.

aurynn wrote:

We have the options through keywords and Ynnari. What more do we want?

I want our own HQs to have options, so that we don't have to steal HQs from a different army to get one with anything remotely fun or interesting.

Rhivan wrote:

Personally I'd love for my HQs to be more customizable as they'd give more options for creativity when modeling, and fleshing them out lorewise, let alone having them mesh with my army better. It just gives us more options with our HQs which is a good thing (Not to mention it'd allow our HQs to be a more mobile in a mobile army)

Agreed.

Why cant DE have the ability to customize our HQs like other eldar?
or SMs of every colour?
or Chaos?
or Deamons?
or Orks?
or Crons?
or Tau?
etc, etc, etc

It makes no sense. There is no fluff for this limitation. I honestly believe its just laziness on GWs part.

Yeah, I like Ynnari and all but DE is my baby, i dont like Eldar.

I want a Jetbike or Skyboard Archon, a Skyboard or Winged Succubus.

I want a FAT floating "fly" Haemonculus (Looks at the Baron from Dune).

Edit: Just sent a message to my local to order me a Festus The Leechlord and i'm going to make it! then i'm going to show GW and tell them how much better at modeling i am and i'm going to play my own rules for it and give him a freaking awesome name and share it!

Not having played that many games 8th and still trying to make sense of any meta. Hellions are supposed to be a counter assualt unit. In practice, without the right screening units they will get shot to pieces.


That being said you all were stupid to think that wouldn't get fixed soon.

Thanks for calling me stupid when you dont even know what i was fully thinking.

I'd had my suspicions that it would get change, these Indexs are basically beta test rules, many more things will be changed.

I doubt you're stupid, but 7th edition jump pack wasn't ever going to be able to cruise in a raider for long.

Guys, I have a crush on DE... I would like our own options too, but my point is that we should not have bikes or wings or boards for the reasons that we already have that option (save for the board). We are limiting ourselves by saying "thats CWE, I wont spoil my army with their filth". It took me a while to admit that its (in my opinion) past thinking. Not taking a HQ with Wings is OUR choice, not rules' fault. Huge amounts of players never had issues with allying DE and CWE or Corsairs to get that bike "Archon". Forgive me for being blunt, but this is like "I like the other kid's toy, I need one too!" instead just borrowing it. Its like CWE were crying "we want opentopped transports".

From modelling point of view we DO have the options. Its just in our heads that we still differentiate so much between various Eldar. I dont like CWE models, but I have plans for Autarch, Farseer, Banshees, Jain-Zar, Scorpions, Kharandras, Phoenix bomber and many more to be made from DE models. Nothing is stopping me. On the tabletop they will look dark and menacing and dare I say great. Only they will have a Battle Focus rule instead PFP. So-bloody-what? They will be Dark eldar shrines. There are bound to be some through Ynnari.

EDIT: We cannot have psykers too... Only we can, can't we? :-) Option is there...
Rules say, that we all are Aeldari. Maybe we should start behaving like that. Autarchs can't have Sslyths, or Shadowfields. SF is free now... honestly THAT is what Archon is supposed to look like IMO. Leave those bikes and wings to the showoff Autarchs.

But 7th =/= 8th

Edit: its not about ally or not ally, its about this is OUR army and they look away MANY options b.c GW literally lost a lawsuit and gutted many rules and units from many armies.

We just want some more options that every other army has. Its nothing to add a HQ with Bikes/Wings/Skyboard.

Literally they only need to add a line of rules on paper. If it sells more and makes the players happy then whats the harm?
PS: Remember "We are a modeling company 1st" ok then give us some models we want and not 50+ more Khorne and Storm guardians models that already has a huge amount of

Yea, the lack of releases bug me too TBH.
That and absence of real Kabal/Cult/Covens "integrity" bonuses, if you catch my drift. :-)
But I am hopeful for the "codex".
Meanwhile I will enjoy modelling, coz our models are one of the best even years after release!

aurynn wrote:

Guys, I have a crush on DE... I would like our own options too, but my point is that we should not have bikes or wings or boards for the reasons that we already have that option (save for the board). We are limiting ourselves by saying "thats CWE, I wont spoil my army with their filth". It took me a while to admit that its (in my opinion) past thinking. Not taking a HQ with Wings is OUR choice, not rules' fault. Huge amounts of players never had issues with allying DE and CWE or Corsairs to get that bike "Archon". Forgive me for being blunt, but this is like "I like the other kid's toy, I need one too!" instead just borrowing it. Its like CWE were crying "we want opentopped transports".

Jeah because those banshees can really ride an open topped transport, oh wait they cannot since it belongs to a different army, or the points you pay to make a mounted succubus which buffs your CWE but not your wyches. I think it is a good thing that not all buffs and stuff are easily transferable, but this also makes it impossible to use just 1 unit of a different faction and pretend it is your own faction. And I don't need all the different buffs the CWE get that make a flying autarch very different from a footslogging or jetbike riding one. I just want it to represent the skyboard.

aurynn wrote:

From modelling point of view we DO have the options. Its just in our heads that we still differentiate so much between various Eldar. I dont like CWE models, but I have plans for Autarch, Farseer, Banshees, Jain-Zar, Scorpions, Kharandras, Phoenix bomber and many more to be made from DE models. Nothing is stopping me. On the tabletop they will look dark and menacing and dare I say great. Only they will have a Battle Focus rule instead PFP. So-bloody-what? They will be Dark eldar shrines. There are bound to be some through Ynnari.

Yes you can, you can make your whole CWE look like true kin but it wil not mix well. you can build your whole army like it (which will lead to WYSIWYG problems unless a lot of converting happens), but just 1 or 2 units does not work.

Ok so an item that used to be an artifact there was only 1 or maybe a few from is what makes the archon the archon? Then why the hell do we need multiple HQ in our army since apparently there is only 1?
That is the problem, I like some theme but we have practically 1 loadout for our HQs and with just 3 real HQ (+3 named) we have very few choices (same goes even more for harlequins)
Eldar have 12 options (and another 10 or so named ones). They have 4 different HQ and except for one each HQ has multiple options of how to be fielded.
I think it would be fair if we throw out a few there and give them to us (the option of a jetbike archon/succubus instead of the jetbike autarch, the winged archon and skyboard succubus so we both have about half of the according to you "shared" eldar HQ Maybe give a few options as well to the harlequins, although I am not sure what would work well for them)

Isn't this more of an issue that our HQs are... well... mandatory cheap choice and not a force by and of themselves? Last edition we had armies with Lhamaean as HQ. I never did that, but can understand that it can be tiring and the thirst for Chapter Master great.

aurynn wrote:

Guys, I have a crush on DE... I would like our own options too, but my point is that we should not have bikes or wings or boards for the reasons that we already have that option (save for the board).

No we don't.

aurynn wrote:

We are limiting ourselves by saying "thats CWE, I wont spoil my army with their filth".

That's ridiculous. We shouldn't have to take HQs from other armies just to get the most basic mobility options.

Need I remind you that DE are supposed to be the fastest army out there. So why the hell is every single one of our HQs stuck footslogging?

aurynn wrote:

Not taking a HQ with Wings is OUR choice, not rules' fault.

Show me where an Archon or Haemonculus can take wings and I'll agree with you.

aurynn wrote:

Huge amounts of players never had issues with allying DE and CWE or Corsairs to get that bike "Archon".

Well good for them.

Personally, I ended up playing Corsairs last edition because they felt more Dark Eldar-y than the actual Dark Eldar.

What's more, I don't think you appreciate the difference between choosing to do something and being forced to do so. These players you mention didn't choose to take a Jetbike Autarch over a Jetbike Archon, they chose the Autarch because the second option didn't exist at all. That's not a choice. That's 'do it this way or GTFO'.

aurynn wrote:

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is like "I like the other kid's toy, I need one too!" instead just borrowing it. Its like CWE were crying "we want opentopped transports".

Given that DE HQs used to be able to take Skyboards and Jetbikes, I think it's more akin to one child crying because his parents decided to smash his toys to smithereens for no good reason, and yet they not only let his brother keep his toys, they also bought him some new ones to go with them.

aurynn wrote:

From modelling point of view we DO have the options. Its just in our heads that we still differentiate so much between various Eldar.

I ask again. Please show me where an Eldar Autarch can take a Blaster or an Agoniser or a Huskblade or can use PfP. If they can't, then it looks like the game also differentiates between the various Eldar.

aurynn wrote:

Only they will have a Battle Focus rule instead PFP. So-bloody-what?

Well what if you want PfP instead? Because, for some mad reason, you actually want to play Dark Eldar and not Craftworld Eldar.

Seriously though, I don't know why this annoys you so much. You'll still be free to use an Autarch instead and also to keep any DE HQs you take on foot. Why do you care if other people can use winged Archons or Haemonculi or whatever? To go back to your child analogy, this is like a child winging because his parents offer to buy him some new toys.

aurynn wrote:

Autarchs can't have Sslyths, or Shadowfields. SF is free now... honestly THAT is what Archon is supposed to look like IMO.

Slow, boring and might as well have come off an assembly line?

aurynn wrote:

Leave those bikes and wings to the showoff Autarchs.

Why is it that we have to suffer nonsense like this? Do you apply this logic to other races? SM HQs have bike and Jump Packs, therefore no other Imperium HQs are allowed them. Otherwise they'd somehow be completely identical in every way to those SM HQs.

Oh, wait, no. It's only DE who have to give up anything remotely interesting lest they become too much like Eldar. Because if an Archon even looks at a bike a fairy godmother will come along and turn him into an Autarch.

Let's just agree to disagree. I understand your points. In W40K reality terms there is absolutely no reason why Archon could not buy a bike or Scourge wings. In that regard I even agree, but its not an issue to me. As a second biggest faction out there, I am quite happy. Actually given last years, happiest of the place we are at, eagerly awaiting a codex and holding tiny hope for new releases. My (mine personally) modelling options expanded very nicely and I intend to use them to full. I'd never trade place with CWE if the price were having their models. I'd even venture as far as say, that our options are great compared to SM with AdMech and AM. Or CHSM and Daemons. They are so model-distinct that such endeavour would be next to impossible. And given the way you talk about Aeldari it seems that you do see CWE and DE as distinct as SM and Admech. BTW I have never heard anyone AdMech wanting SM options for their units.

aurynn wrote:

Let's just agree to disagree.

Sure.

aurynn wrote:

Let's just agree to disagree. I understand your points. In W40K reality terms there is absolutely no reason why Archon could not buy a bike or Scourge wings. In that regard I even agree, but its not an issue to me. As a second biggest faction out there, I am quite happy. Actually given last years, happiest of the place we are at, eagerly awaiting a codex and holding tiny hope for new releases. My (mine personally) modelling options expanded very nicely and I intend to use them to full. I'd never trade place with CWE if the price were having their models.

aurynn wrote:

And given the way you talk about Aeldari it seems that you do see CWE and DE as distinct as SM and Admech.

More or less. I don't necessarily object to mixing Eldar and DE units. What I dislike is being forced to use Eldar units if I want my HQ to do anything other than walk.

aurynn wrote:

BTW I have never heard anyone AdMech wanting SM options for their units.

I don't know about requests for SM options per se, but I've definitely heard Admech players asking for more options, most notably:
- More HQ choices (The Tech Priest Dominus is very good, but they don't really want to take more than one of him. With many detachments requiring 2+ HQs, I know many of them would like some different HQs - or even different models for their one HQ.)
- Transports. This is the big one. I don't know if they've got their eye on SM transports or if they want something else, but the lack of transports is something I've heard a lot of Admech players voice concern about.

SOmewhat related - I've also heard many SoB players lament the loss of a Jump Pack option for the Canoness.

I went the way of Corsairs too and i was going to again, they offer more flavor that is MORE of a play style to DE than DE.

I loved playing them and if the get another codex i'll jump right back into them.

They feel more of a Raider style army, a shock attack approach, they have low LD and LD rules to make them want to get away (Raiding parties like Pirates are more like that too)

The WWP/DS abilities were better, the Bikes could be set up better for Shooting OR melee, the Baron and the Prince were 100x better than Archons.

@aurynn just b.c it isnt an issue with you and it wouldnt hurt you, doesnt mean we shouldnt have it.

About SoB, the Canoness couldnt take a Jump Pack sense like 2014 (when they came out with the White Dwarf rules they got gutted). I didnt play them before those rules came out so i dont know if they could take them before. But as a SoB player that would be SWEET! to have a Jump Canoness.

@Shredder - I do not deny that I do want more options. Its natural and there is nothing wrong with it. I just appreciate what we have more than regret what we do not have. :-)

@amishprn86 - If that were my reason, I'd 100% agree, but my reasons were totally different. :-)
I just do not believe all armies should have the same options. To me its chess thinking. IMO its wrong for the game and ultimately for the players and the meta because giving Wings to Archons would require giving Shadowfield to Autarchs for example.

I dont see it that way either tho.

Autarchs have an Invul made for them, Archons/DE have the SPecial SF, but DE options are still different where we get "Skyboards" they get a J"ump Generator".

This still leaves room for differences but at the same time gives us the Option to go vehicle less without needing to flootslug everywhere.

When we had WWP's at least we needed need those things like we do now, but sense our HQ's can no Longer DS (we are suppose to be able to its F&*^ing stupid we cant anymore) that leaves us with 0 options other than vehicles.

aurynn wrote:

I just do not believe all armies should have the same options. To me its chess thinking. IMO its wrong for the game and ultimately for the players and the meta because giving Wings to Archons would require giving Shadowfield to Autarchs for example.

I disagree completely. An Autarch having an option for Swooping Hawk Wings is entirely unrelated to whether an Archon has a Shadowfield. They are two separate units from two separate armies. Why is giving an Autarch, or a Space Marine Captain, or a Chaos Lord or a Tau Commander the ability to take various different options that alter their role in an army fine but giving similar options to a Dark Eldar Archon is not?

@Count - It certainly is not wrong per se. It is just my opinion these particular options are wrong fluffwise and if anything I'd like to see other options, preferrably those that would not put Archon in the battleline or Succubus outside her wyches/brides. I field her with Incubi which is bad enough fluff-wise. And game-wise if you do not see anything wrong with having the same options across factions so distinct that players refuse to mix them, well... I do. :-)

That WWP is another great example. Shouldn't it be available to both despite it being a signature DE thing and briefly Corsair thing? As you argue that bikes and wings should be available for Archons/Succubi. No. I want the WWP for Archon. Not Autarch. If anything, something that Eldar would envy us as much as we envy them. Get my drift? :-)

You're entitled to your opinion but the fluff is absolutely there to allow Succubi and Archons to enjoy transport modes that their minions employ. Succubi previously had a bike option in the 3e codex (as did Haemonculi I believe). There is specific fluff of an Archon with Scourge wings. Baron Sathonyx was famously equipped with a Skyboard.

The WWP should indeed be available to all factions of Eldar. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with giving any army an option that is appropriate to their background as long as it has suitable rules and points costs. I genuinely do not understand why you do have a problem with it.

I understand converting up CWE into DE stuff, I myself have plans to do so, but in this specific case it's simply what our HQs can do, and examples have been given with some really fluffy ways to run it (Murderpack of Scourges and Archon being my favorite seen)

Given that in 8th edition we are required to take multiple HQs as well along with cookie cutter builds that all footslog it's kinda disappointing. Yes we could nab from other factions and I'll do so, but I'll still wish that I could have HQs from my faction that could buff the majority of my units.

As for your view that Archons shouldn't be on the battleline, some certainly wouldn't but the thing is all Dark Eldar need to feed on pain and some will prefer to do that upclose. Plus each Archon is so radically different with how they climb the ranks and lead (in the fluff entire Kabals operate and fight under the Archon's own preferences/quirks) I'd say having something like the Corsair princes's obsession would be a cool way to run Archons and along with bikes and wings make the HQ something desired rather then the cheap HQ option for us.

Succubi Reavers exist and it's often stated that those who drive a reaver don't like giving it up, so a reaver  Succubus  would be giving up a fantastic weapon for... leadership? (Why would she have to give it up again?) and in regards to running her with a fluffy unit she could then run more easily with beasts, Hellions, or Reavers giving her more fluffy options to roll with

I like variety. Not same options. I find it cheap design and boring. As I have said before - I do not believe AdMech and SM should share the same options. Same for CWE and DE.

As for fluff. 3rd edition... well... I won't pretend I know much of that era, but its waaaay past. Retconned for several editions. Our Archons these days are as different as anyone else I guess. So I tend to discount that. And another point - I do accept Ynnari. So if I accept the new things, I have to accept the lost or ommited ones just.

Anyway, lets not get too heated - as you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. We shall see what options we will and won't get. I won't be sorry if we get the option for Archon wings or bike. But I won't be sorry if we don't. :-)

@Rhivan - yes, your ideas are quite nice IMO. Reaver HQ, but not Succy option to take bike, Several Archon styles (even some totally mad). But not Autarch copycat.

Count Adhemar wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion but the fluff is absolutely there to allow Succubi and Archons to enjoy transport modes that their minions employ. Succubi previously had a bike option in the 3e codex (as did Haemonculi I believe). There is specific fluff of an Archon with Scourge wings. Baron Sathonyx was famously equipped with a Skyboard.

Where is the "Like" button?

Count Adhemar wrote:

The WWP should indeed be available to all factions of Eldar. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with giving any army an option that is appropriate to their background as long as it has suitable rules and points costs. I genuinely do not understand why you do have a problem with it.

Err... I kind of disagree here.

DEldar: yep, they live in the Webway, its where they deploy from.

Harlies: yep, see above.

Corsairs: yep, kind of.  Something more like the Key Generator they had last edition would feel more appropriate.

Craftworlders:  They deploy from Craftworlds.  Which are in Realspace.  What?  Except most Craftworlds have Webway Portals on board (the giant Wraithbone Arches) I think it would be more appropriate for the CEldar to get something similar to the Key Generator the Corsairs had.

And on the Arches note: I think that when the True Kin shifted from the brilliant 5th ed Dex to the aggressively mediocre 7th ed Dex, a fluff change around the Webway Portal occured, but no one bothered to mention it.

It went from being a piece of Wargear that a suitably rich DEldar carried on their person, to being an Archway back home that a suitably rich Eladrith Ynneas would program to open up somewhere planetside partway through the battle, and then step through.
Which is why it went from "opens a portal" to "Deep Strike".

Edit: A similar "Like" goes to @Rhivan's most recent comment. Hit the nail bang on the head there, mate.

As I said before Baron was an outcast, not an Archon and I am perfectly OK with him getting back as Special Character.
I am perfectly OK with getting Malixian the Mad with Scourge wings.
There is great difference between exception and common option.
CWE have 9 special characters. I would not mind similar amount of choices... Baron, Malys, Vect, Malixian (winged one), Bellathonis, Reaver plus the current trio.

@Ikol - good point on WWPs. Okaaay. Let the CWE have their fun with it too.

Yeah, Baron was an outcast; but a Hellion HQ would be cool. Give them a Succubus statline, Hellion rules, Wych Cult buffs and Hellion+HQ gear.

Same deal for Reavers.

And as for Archons... Reaver Jetbikes and Hellion/ Beastmaster Skyboards are both distinctly Wych Cult things. I think JUST the Scourge wings as an option would be fine. Then give him Archon rules, access to the Scourge guns in addition to what he already has, and change specifically the winged Archon's Aura to also effect Scourges.