How do you all feel about Kabalite Warriors so far in 8th?

Arani wrote:

On the note of the Archon buff..  I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't think he really should give <Kabal> units any buffs for shooting or anything.  I mean from a fluff perspective I doubt most Archons give two crap about their low-born Kabalite Warriors.  I don't really think they're the kind of guys and gals that are on the battlefield giving rousing speeches and trying to inspire heroism or greater accuracy.  Instead they're full of "towering arrogance", and more often than not are probably just looking out for their own gains.  

Personally, I was more thinking along the line of a "Tyrant" rule. Makes all <Kabal> units within 6" reroll ranged hits of 1.

He doesn't "buff" his Kabal, his Kabal is afraid of messing up in front of him and try to perform extra well.

Arani wrote:

The courts meanwhile do get a few decent synergies like being able to pull wounds off the archon, rerolling to hit within a certain proximity, and such.  But of course, Courts aren't exactly what they used to be.

You are just pouring more points into something that isn't worth to begin with. Succubi and Haemonculi are far superior in close combat and provide good/excellent buffs as well.

Blasters and Huskblades are not really worth taking on the Archon and the Shadowfield is nice at best. I loved to field Medusae to annihilate MEQ squads in 7th, but now they don't even auto-hit and are almost twice as expensive.
And Sslyth make our tank Archon... more tanky?

Arani wrote:

I think Kabalites are in a decent spot right now.  I mean they're hurting literally every monster in the game on 4's now (even Phantom Titans, Heirophants, and Wraithknights).  But they of course aren't all that good against regular infantry like Imperial Guard.  But that's what the Shredder is supposed to be for.  I think that's the real item that needs to be adjusted to give us potent, anti-infantry firepower.  I think for starters the Shredder needs to be d6 shots instead of a pathetic D3, and giving it the same rules as other mono-filament based weapons wouldn't hurt either. If that was the case.. Trueborn squads rocking out 4 shredders would... Well.. shred.

The problem is that the monsters in question gained a lot more wounds, which makes single damage weapons far weaker than it seems.

Moreover, we are really at a disadvanatge with our 4+ against GEQ since they come in far bigger numbers in this edition. And we can't even capitalize against T6,7, since most weapons will hit them on 5s (so, not a huge difference).

The only thing that improved for us is that we can wound vehicles on a 6. But even then vehicles have much more wounds as well...


And to be honest, poison was never that great. It was good because we could spam it in huge quantities over great distances. Even that is gone now. Imo, the only saving grace is that Kabalites are somewhat cheap, same applies to Scourges with Shardcarbines (twice to cost, three times the dakka).


Edit: I'm not saying Poison and Kabalites are bad, but there are many small things that arguably make them worse than they were in previous editions.

I'll be fielding Kabalites anyway just because they are cheap (for our standards) and I don't only want melee troops. I'll put 2-4 units in Venoms as this gives you most splinter fire per cost (the loss of Splinter Racks is really bad too). But I will also experiment with 10 men Kabalites on foot and Shardcarbine Scourges and see how that will work out.

Kabalites warriors are quite unique. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think we have the cheapest BS 3+ in the game, and the second place is going to Guardian Defenders, with their 12" range. We can almost spam as much shooting attacks as ork shootas (except at range 12-18, but we can shoot from 19-24), but with twice as many chances to hit. Agreed, poison isn't an OP rule, but it's not like we're paying for it.

amishprn86 wrote:

helvexis wrote:

Ive been finding kabalites to be exceptionally useful.

Like everyone else ill agree the 5man blaster squads took a bit of a hit but i would still take them as a cheap troops choice(2 of these in a raider is cheap and only one deployment turn for 3 units) and PGL's are great

However i have also been using 10 man squads with a S.Cannon in a Raider with great success. 4 of these are probably going to be a staple of most of my lists.

I find the extra shots at 18+ to be useful and if you are taking 10 man squads anyway the 4 extra shots are more than worth it from 18 and less... unless you really need more lances but we have so many good options for them that its kind of a waste

This is my Problem with 18+ range and 10man squads

10 Warriors + SC + Raider = 200pts for 3 Poison and 1 Lance
@ SC Rapid fire range: 15 poison, 1 lance
@ full Rapid fire range: 24 poison, 1 lance

5 Trueborn + 2 SC's + Venom w/ 2 SC's = 180pts for 12 poison
@ SC Rapid fire range: 27 poison
@ full Rapid fire range: 30 poison
Optional: Add 2 Shredders: 28 poison 2d3 S6 for 196pts

So just for Poison shots the Trueborn with SC's and venom is more shots and cheaper, but you lose the Lance, looking at AI tho i'd rather have the Trueborn with a venom, i take Ravagers and Fliers for AT (I've been able to kill 2 storm ravens in 1 turn with my fliers/ravagers so i have full faith in them, tho i do take a combine amount of 5-6 of them).

Not saying the Raider w/ Lance isnt worth the points, just looking at it from a range poison PoV is all.

Edit: The major difference is the body count, for me i like 5mans, i know many that like 10mans, so idk how much of a big deal that if for you.

You arent wrong at all but i prefer the extra lance and the larger squad size to get onto an objective after taking down most of a squad as its numbers that matter for holding an objective so 5 guys tends to not be enough or is too easily knocked off once they claim it.

... and i just prefer trueborn with blasters hunting terminators or bikes and finishing off vehicles (with or without a couple of splinter cannons as well depending on points and how many raiders i have spare(7 man squads with4 blasters and 2 cannons put out alot of hurt)

It is essentially a personal choice on what you want to be doing anti infantry and anyo vehicle duties. And warrriors are better for onfantry duty than tank hunting

CptMetal wrote:

I love Kabalite warriors. They are great.
I use 5 dudes with Agoniser, Phantasm Grenade Launcher and Blaster. They were great so far.

My experience also.

I recently started using 10 with a lance on foot.
And stupidly enough they actually are doing quite well.
They usually get to guard an objective near my starting area. Just sit there, taking lance shot at vehicles while the normal guys help keep the mid field and mid objectives clear while protecting my own backfield against invasions.

Kabalites seem moderately improved this edition which is cool, it's the "in a Raider" part that's problematic. Raiders were overpriced to begin with in 7th, and now they're even more so for not a significant increase in durability (compared to a 3+ jink save). On top of that Splinter Racks are gone, passengers can no longer Overwatch, and if my Raider gets charged I have to disembark if I want to be able to shoot. They're not as bad as 17pt Dire Avengers, but I just don't find my Raider squads pulling their weight, which is incredibly disappointing because I love the theme and imagery of flying pirate gunboats.

But Raiders are great! I love them so far. Able to soak overwatch, more durable, the dark lance is awesome (and some people claim the dissis too).
You are much more mobole. How far could you move last edition and shoot with the warriors inside? 6 inches.
And now?
That´s dark eldar-style!

I just wish we get vehicle upgrades like Eldar..... no love for DE

Yeah...that would be nice. I bet we will get stuff like that in the codex. The only question is: When will it hit?

So far, my kabalite warriors have performed adequately.

2 5-man squads with a blaster in each, stuffed into a raider, is my new go-to arrangement. The extra AT at 18" is actually pretty useful, and they're convenient for taking multiple remote objectives - For example, in the last game I played, I had one raider on the left flank, which had been abandoned by my opponent to focus on the brunt of my army, which was on the right. So, I just dropped one unit off onto an objective, and then taxi'd the second unit over to another objective to drop them off there.

CptMetal wrote:

But Raiders are great! I love them so far. Able to soak overwatch, more durable,

Not really any more durable compared to having a 3+ cover save last edition, though admittedly you get to fire your weapon at full BS now. And what Overwatch should a Raider be soaking for a Kabalite squad? Even if you wait until turn 3 and take an Agonizer, at best Warriors will only be able to finish off a mostly depleted squad of GEQs, and barely make a dent in an MEQ squad. They're not a unit you want to be charging in against much of anything especially since Overwatch is still a credible threat to them.

Quote :

You are much more mobole. How far could you move last edition and shoot with the warriors inside? 6 inches.

More mobile, sure, but at the cost of Splinter Racks, Overwatch from inside the transport, and being able to shoot if your vehicle gets charged. Essentially all that quicker advancing to rapid-fire range gets you is the opportunity to be charged quicker and end up missing out on chances to shoot. Kabalite firepower from inside a Raider is kind of anemic this edition, especially considering the fairly hefty points investment the Raider is. I'm not opposed to Raiders on the whole, they seem to work perfectly well for melee units, but their drawbacks/cost outweigh their benefits for Warrior squads.

I would always charge my Kabalites into a unit of any shooting specialists. Its not about their winning in CC, but the enemy's not shooting! Who cares that half of the squad dies if he will shoot 4 less plasma shots?

Charging Kabalites is far from stupid. I've done it against squads that i had massacred with shooting, and i wanted to kill 1 or maybe 2 more dudes to make the moral check fatal. And overwatch is almost a thing of the past, since raiders get it everytime.

Also, we are a lot more durable than a 3 HP 10 AV 3+ cover save gunboat. The reason is that everytime you encountered any army that had reliable ignore cover, you could just go home. Now you have a safe 5+ inv, a safe 5 T, a safe 10HP. Nobody is going to OS all your raiders by just showing up with ignore cover. Nobody is going to destroy your entire army just by deep striking 40 space marines with heavy flamers in drop pods, leaving you with empty damaged raiders.

Deris87 wrote:

CptMetal wrote:

But Raiders are great! I love them so far. Able to soak overwatch, more durable,

Not really any more durable compared to having a 3+ cover save last edition, though admittedly you get to fire your weapon at full BS now. And what Overwatch should a Raider be soaking for a Kabalite squad? Even if you wait until turn 3 and take an Agonizer, at best Warriors will only be able to finish off a mostly depleted squad of GEQs, and barely make a dent in an MEQ squad. They're not a unit you want to be charging in against much of anything especially since Overwatch is still a credible threat to them.

Quote :

You are much more mobole. How far could you move last edition and shoot with the warriors inside? 6 inches.

More mobile, sure, but at the cost of Splinter Racks, Overwatch from inside the transport, and being able to shoot if your vehicle gets charged. Essentially all that quicker advancing to rapid-fire range gets you is the opportunity to be charged quicker and end up missing out on chances to shoot.  Kabalite firepower from inside a Raider is kind of anemic this edition, especially considering the fairly hefty points investment the Raider is. I'm not opposed to Raiders on the whole, they seem to work perfectly well for melee units, but their drawbacks/cost outweigh their benefits for Warrior squads.

I could have taken 20 vehicles 7th and by turn 4 all 20 could have been dead... i take 7 now and i have 5 left on turn 4... yes they are MUCH more survivable, ALL vehicles are now.

If you think they are not survivable then you havent played much of 8th yet.

The Kabalite Raiders squads i took in 7th edition (splinter racks, night shields, dark lance, splinter cannon) were 185 points.
Now they are 200 points.

Things that got better :
- Mvt increased from 6 to 14
- Extremely more durable, and doesn't rely on cover anymore
- The vehicle is good in CC
- FGL is good, DL is incredible
- You can shoot the SC at 36" after moving
Things that got worse :
- SC shooting 3 instead of 4 at 36"
- No overwatch from inside vehicle
- No more splinter racks (this is a big one)

To me the buff is well worth an overall 15 points increase.

Personally I feel indifferent to them, as the role more or less remains the same. Also their points reduction is negated by the increased price in our transports.

On another note, based on my experience there are two forms of usage;

1) Venom riding: 5 man 1 blaster as usual. Blaster is weakened and the venom is a close ranged fighter, but in general the role still remains the same

2) Raider riding: 10 man all splinter rifles, maybe a splinter cannon. Current DE for some reason lacks medium to long-ranged massed anti-infantry firepower as compared to the old days, so this build is able to mitigate the long-range issue in a way. Also blaster and/or lance spams are better off on other units (ravagers, scourges, trueborns, etc) than Kabalites.

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Try google blogger, Imgur and many others now.

5 man 1 blaster as usual - another upside: you have split fire now!

That Venom Steersman is holding a knife.

Why is that Venom Steersman holding a knife?

Does he not realise; The Entire Venom Is a Knife.

Its a Razorwing even beheading Barrel roll

I've had a good bit of success using in groups of five on foot, with a lance a piece, to get more lances on the table, albiet in a much less mobile manner than putting on ravages.

A base squad with a lance is barely over the third of cost of a ravager and
has the following pro's:
-When in cover posses a 4+, 6+ FNP
-Uses a troop slot
-Has 4-8 poison shots in 24-12"
-Can take a PGL for 3 points
-Doesn't degrade as it is shot at.
-Doesn't fear high damage weapons
-Is reasonably resistant to morale tests with the ld8.

It's less mobile than a triple lance ravager, less resistant to low strength weapons, and a touch spendier
but being able to stick 15 models around your backfield has a certain charm

DoctorMurderblood wrote:

I've had a good bit of success using in groups of five on foot, with a lance a piece, to get more lances on the table, albiet in a much less mobile manner than putting on ravages.

A base squad with a lance is barely over the third of cost of a ravager and
has the following pro's:
-When in cover posses a 4+, 6+ FNP
-Uses a troop slot
-Has 4-8 poison shots in 24-12"
-Can take a PGL for 3 points
-Doesn't degrade as it is shot at.
-Doesn't fear high damage weapons
-Is reasonably resistant to morale tests with the ld8.

It's less mobile than a triple lance ravager, less resistant to low strength weapons, and a touch spendier
but being able to stick 15 models around your backfield has a certain charm

They can't take D.Lances or Splinter Cannons unless 10 man strong.

I run mine 5 man with a Blaster and Blast Pistol inside of a Venom with no SC upgrade. They are cheap and effective because they can put wounds on anything. I think Warriors lose effectiveness when they go to 10 man and have to put in a Raider because it balloons their points too high. I would argue they could be more effective running them smaller with fewer upgrade as it will enable you to use the 60+ points elsewhere in your list to fill gaps.
I have tried the Agonizer multiple times but I seem to never have points left to take it. With only 2 attacks they will not be crushing squads. Though it would be nice at Turn 3 to be hitting on 2s with them.
Overall, I think Warriors are the go to troop for us again this edition as they are cheap and can deal with any situation on a shooting level that is required.

SCP Yeeman wrote:

I run mine 5 man with a Blaster and Blast Pistol inside of a Venom with no SC upgrade.  They are cheap and effective because they can put wounds on anything.  I think Warriors lose effectiveness when they go to 10 man and have to put in a Raider because it balloons their points too high.  I would argue they could be more effective running them smaller with fewer upgrade as it will enable you to use the 60+ points elsewhere in your list to fill gaps.
I have tried the Agonizer multiple times but I seem to never have points left to take it.  With only 2 attacks they will not be crushing squads.  Though it would be nice at Turn 3 to be hitting on 2s with them.
Overall, I think Warriors are the go to troop for us again this edition as they are cheap and can deal with any situation on a shooting level that is required.

When i run them its Blaster/Agoniser/PGL i believe the same thing, they are not good in large units i feel.