How does everyone feel about the Archon?

One thought I had to represent the tactical cunning of an Archon would be a simple buff that isn't that overpowered;

"If you have an Archon as your warlord, you can steal the initiative on a 5+"

Gives us a slight edge in getting the alpha strike turn 1, represents the tactical edge Archons (should) bring to the table, but isn't as broken as warping them around the table healing units.

I think the Archon does lack compared to even pre' ed'. I take one now as again he's cheap but I enjoy fielding him with my two Sslyth in the Tantalus. I see a few people mentioning Drazhar. I've always said to a good friend that he needs an invul' and it's good to see that he does, yet him not being able to put out the damage a Klaivex can baffles me.

I'm not a fan of the new mini for the archon at all. Converting one out of the Visarch seems cool though.

Still, super disappointed at the huskblade still being weak.

On the plus, Archons are a cheap 2+ blaster caddy

lament.config wrote:

I'm not a fan of the new mini for the archon at all. Converting one out of the Visarch seems cool though.

Still, super disappointed at the huskblade still being weak.

On the plus, Archons are a cheap 2+ blaster caddy

2+ blaster is nice, but it's not as good as the old BS 7

On a related note, what do people feel about the court of the archon?

Quote :

On a related note, what do people feel about the court of the archon?

They seem to be decent, but the fact that each one is their own unit makes them finicky to play and get into close combat.

So, average and totally forgettable.

FuelDrop wrote:

lament.config wrote:

I'm not a fan of the new mini for the archon at all. Converting one out of the Visarch seems cool though.

Still, super disappointed at the huskblade still being weak.

On the plus, Archons are a cheap 2+ blaster caddy

2+ blaster is nice, but it's not as good as the old BS 7

At least the Blaster is finally good though.

FuelDrop wrote:

On a related note, what do people feel about the court of the archon?

Honestly, I think they pay far too much for being characters, which is rarely useful in the first place.

Lhamaean/Ur-Ghul: Why would I ever take these over Incubi, Wracks and/or Grotesques? Also, could someone please explain to me how either of these are even remotely worth their cost?

Sslyth - They're not awful but they're way more than I'd ever want to pay for a Shardcarbine and some okay melee attacks. What's more, they're a bodyguard unit in need of something valuable to guard. I just don't see the value in spending so many points to protect an Archon who's very cheap and barely does anything.

Medusae: They're the cheapest for some bizarre reason. Not by much but it's something. Are they worth it though? Given that their attack no longer auto-hits, +1 range over a flamer is a joke. Also, a squad of 4 is only a few points less than a minimum squad of Blasterborn. The Medusae get more shots. The Blasterborn have twice the range, twice the strength, twice the AP and (on average) twice the damage per shot. I know which I'd prefer.

In summary, Sslyth and Medusae at least seem playable, if rather niche. Lhamaeans and Ur-Ghuls though, I see no merits whatsoever.

I mean the Ur-Ghul isn't a terrible unit if it were cheaper, with 6 attacks on the charge hitting at ST 4 3+ rerollable and a 5+ invulnerable.

If it were a bit cheaper it'd be a halfway decent counter to hordes. As is it's primary strength (offence) isn't high enough for its cost.

Quote :

I just don't see the value in spending so many points to protect an Archon who's very cheap and barely does anything.

That's a really good observation...and it has made me realize something about the design of the Archon..

Why, why for the bloody love of Khaine would they make the HQ who has four units dedicated to protecting him the cheap expendable one?

FuelDrop wrote:

I mean the Ur-Ghul isn't a terrible unit if it were cheaper, with 6 attacks on the charge hitting at ST 4 3+ rerollable and a 5+ invulnerable.

If it were a bit cheaper it'd be a halfway decent counter to hordes. As is it's primary strength (offence) isn't high enough for its cost.

If it was cheaper it might edge into being usable. However, I'd still be uncomfortable using such a niche unit. I'd prefer to use something like Mandrakes. Granted, they're not quite as effective against hordes as Ur-Ghuls. However, they can shoot hordes from 18" away (whereas Ur-Ghuls need to get into melee with them), they don't need a transport, they can start in reserve and appear on the board wherever they're needed, they're decent in combat and they have reasonable defence (5++ and -1 to hit). Most importantly though, unlike Ur-Ghuls their main weapon is effective against far more than just hordes - as the -1AP and mortal wounds allows them to threaten a great deal of other units as well.

Now, obviously there are also other choices like Wracks, Grotesques or just massed shooting from Warriors (currently, you can have almost 5 Warriors per Ur-Ghul). The point is that these choices are effective against quite a few other units and can often serve other roles (e.g. the aforementioned Mandrakes can also arrive on objectives), whereas Ur-Ghuls are only really useful against horde-type units.

Maybe they'd be worth it sometimes but I can't see myself taking them.

TheBaconPope wrote:

That's a really good observation...and it has made me realize something about the design of the Archon..

Why, why for the bloody love of Khaine would they make the HQ who has four units dedicated to protecting him the cheap expendable one?

I think the issue is that (in addition to giving him a worthless aura) they've gradually removed all the Archon's gear. he used to start off cheap (since he brought very little at base) but could be kitted out with a lot of stuff. Now though, he's got virtually no options so is stuck as a cheap HQ whether you want him to be or not. He really needs to get back the stuff he had in 5th. He also needs a better buff.

Here's the thing with the Ur-ghul. I go to myself, what is a decent price for this level of offence and defence, assuming you could get them in packs rather than individually?

My first thought is 20 points ish. Then I thought "for 17 points you can get a chainaxe/chainsword beserker, who has better attacks, better strength, better toughness, and in most circumstances a better save. So you’re paying for wounds at this point.
It’s at the point where AS IS, this multiple wound model is probably worth 17 points AT MOST, and that is without factoring in stuff like legion tactics which can easily get the berserker 8 attacks on the charge, with higher S and better AP on half of them.

FuelDrop wrote:

On a related note, what do people feel about the court of the archon?

A very big step backwards in my opinion. I loved my Medusae in a transport in 7th to surgically blast away a squad of MEQ. However, with drastically increased costs, no auto-hit and arguably worse AP this is just a bad investment every way you look at it.

Sslyth have their nice as Archon bodyguards... in theory. In practice, you are sinking too many points for a unit that does nothing for you to begin with.

I'm starting to lose it here guys the 1-person-short transport capacity and utter lack of non-infantry options for any of our characters really really sucks.

Give my Haemonculi the option for enhanced anti-grav propulsion or wings, give the Succubus the option for a Reaver Jetbike or skyboard and give the Archon an option for everything.

The Archon should sit somewhere between the Haemonculus in resilience and area of effect ability and the Succubus in raw combat power.

Right now the Archon just doesn't sit anywhere. It really blows.

Also a heamy is aguably better at killing characters then our succubus, which is plain nonsense.

Let the Heamy lose an attack (they are not supposed to be our best warriors in my mind, archons and succubi should outfight them), and the succubus should gain at least one attack and probably also give her an option for a weapon with good str some ap and multiple wounds (similar to the scissors maybe better ap) so that the queens of the arena can actually go and fight other characters.
Let the Archon gain lots of stuff, right now he is just an expensive slightly more durable trueborn.

Ur-ghull, Sslyth, Medusa should lose character get a small unit size and gain a price decrease (although right now it might be the character rule is right now the main reason why they are overpriced while it hurts them as much as it helps).
Let the Lahmean stay a character and give her a poison buff aura/ buff to one unit, or also make her a unit.

Lahmean with a 6" aura of reroll 1's to wound with splinter weapons would be very nice, even if it were just for Kabal only.

Hell, make the court a squad of advisors and bodyguards, each one either improving the Archon or providing an extra buff for nearby Kabalites.

FuelDrop wrote:

Here's the thing with the Ur-ghul. I go to myself, what is a decent price for this level of offence and defence, assuming you could get them in packs rather than individually?

My first thought is 20 points ish. Then I thought "for 17 points you can get a chainaxe/chainsword beserker, who has better attacks, better strength, better toughness, and in most circumstances a better save. So you’re paying for wounds at this point.
It’s at the point where AS IS, this multiple wound model is probably worth 17 points AT MOST, and that is without factoring in stuff like legion tactics which can easily get the berserker 8 attacks on the charge, with higher S and better AP on half of them.

Even at 17pts I'd wouldn't bother with them.

lcfr wrote:

I'm starting to lose it here guys the 1-person-short transport capacity and utter lack of non-infantry options for any of our characters really really sucks.

Give my Haemonculi the option for enhanced anti-grav propulsion or wings, give the Succubus the option for a Reaver Jetbike or skyboard and give the Archon an option for everything.

The Archon should sit somewhere between the Haemonculus in resilience and area of effect ability and the Succubus in raw combat power.

Right now the Archon just doesn't sit anywhere. It really blows.

I agree entirely. We're supposed to be a fast army, yet we don't have a single HQ with a mobility option other than a transport.

And as you say, even our transports aren't built to carry characters. I mean, if GW don't want to raise their transport capacity then they could at least stop increasing the minimum size of our squads.

|Meavar wrote:

Also a heamy is aguably better at killing characters then our succubus, which is plain nonsense.

Let the Heamy lose an attack (they are not supposed to be our best warriors in my mind, archons and succubi should outfight them), and the succubus should gain at least one attack and probably also give her an option for a weapon with good str some ap and multiple wounds (similar to the scissors maybe better ap) so that the queens of the arena can actually go and fight other characters.
Let the Archon gain lots of stuff, right now he is just an expensive slightly more durable trueborn.

I don't think haemonculi should lose an attack (it's a function of them having extra arms), but Succubi and Archons could certainly stand to gain one.

The issue with the Haemonculus is that his best weapon (the Electrocorrosive Whip) is effectively the best of both of the Archon's weapons - it has the extra damage of a Huskblade but the poisoned ability of an Agoniser.

The Archon needs a lot more bite. I've said it before and I'll say it again - 4+ poison is garbage for glass cannons, especially given that melee should yield higher rewards than shooting. The Agoniser should be our equivalent of a Power Fist, yet it falls short in every aspect. I'd consider making it Poison 3+, AP-3 (maybe adding a couple of points to its cost). I'd make the Huskblade S: User, AP-4, Damage 3 but 1 against vehicles (or could be Damage d6 against non-vehicles). It could have rerolls to-wound as well.

The Electrocorrosive Whip can stay the same, I think. It will still be decent but it's no longer completely outclassing the Archon's weapons.

Then we get to the Glaive. Literally the worst Power Fist in the game. Every other weapon that has a '-1 to hit' clause doubles the user's strength and deals multiple damage. The Glaive adds 2 to the Succubus' strength and deals a single point of damage. I think the simple change is to just make it a power fist in terms of statline (so Strength x2, AP-3, damage d3). Obviously we can tweak it a bit but I think that would be a solid starting point and would set it apart nicely from the more tricksy Archon weapons.

FuelDrop wrote:

Lahmean with a 6" aura of reroll 1's to wound with splinter weapons would be very nice, even if it were just for Kabal only.

Hell, make the court a squad of advisors and bodyguards, each one either improving the Archon or providing an extra buff for nearby Kabalites.

I like the idea but we're once again hampered by the lack of space in our transports. It's also a pain in that we wouldn't get the buff so long as we remain embarked (which is what I'd want to do with kabalites ).

Succubus should not have the least attacks of the DE HQ options. I would have thought this was a no brainer but apparently not at GW headquarters...

Really, the Succubus should be terrifying in melee, able to take on other characters and monsters with at least even odds, due to having centuries or even millennia of experience fighting the most skilled fighters and dangerous monsters that can be captured and dragged into the arena.

With the wound boost that everything got this edition she needs to do at least 2 damage per hit, and have enough attacks to deal with hordes. Frankly, if you up the Glaive's damage to 2 and removed the hit penalty, and upped the Succubus to base 6 attacks, she would be a genuinely scary opponent. Maybe give her a rule that lets her reroll failed wounds vs monsters too? Or even infantry and monsters, so she can carve through cannon fodder like a knife through butter while still being a significant threat to any monstrous creature or character dumb enough to come within arms reach.

Seeing a Succubus charging at your squad should be the last thing you ever see. They should be just that badass in melee, to compensate for their very limited support, durability, and ranged capabilities.

The Archon should be equally terrifying, but for different reasons. Archons should have at the very least as many gear options as Space Marine Captains, compensating for being less focused a melee monster than the Succubus by dint of sheer versatility and providing tactical offensive buffs to nearby allies.

The Haemonculus should be a defensive buff specialist, the team medic if you will. Not a slouch in combat, but more geared to outlast the enemy than to destroy them before they can strike back. The toughness boosting aura is an excellent example of what they should have, but they need more. Even if it's wargear options or something like what Fabius Bile got in the chaos codex, giving a buff at the risk of some mortal wounds.

EDIT: Sorry, the Succubus is tied in last place for number of attacks with our Melee Focused PHOENIX LORD! My mistake.

FuelDrop wrote:

Succubus should not have the least attacks of the DE HQ options. I would have thought this was a no brainer but apparently not at GW headquarters...

Really, the Succubus should be terrifying in melee, able to take on other characters and monsters with at least even odds, due to having centuries or even millennia of experience fighting the most skilled fighters and dangerous monsters that can be captured and dragged into the arena.

With the wound boost that everything got this edition she needs to do at least 2 damage per hit, and have enough attacks to deal with hordes. Frankly, if you up the Glaive's damage to 2 and removed the hit penalty, and upped the Succubus to base 6 attacks, she would be a genuinely scary opponent. Maybe give her a rule that lets her reroll failed wounds vs monsters too? Or even infantry and monsters, so she can carve through cannon fodder like a knife through butter while still being a significant threat to any monstrous creature or character dumb enough to come within arms reach.

Seeing a Succubus charging at your squad should be the last thing you ever see. They should be just that badass in melee, to compensate for their very limited support, durability, and ranged capabilities.

Would it make more sense to give the Succubus rerolls against characters?

Otherwise I agree. She should embody the melee glass cannon - fragile but woe betide you if she gets to attack you.

FuelDrop wrote:

The Archon should be equally terrifying, but for different reasons. Archons should have at the very least as many gear options as Space Marine Captains, compensating for being less focused a melee monster than the Succubus by dint of sheer versatility and providing tactical offensive buffs to nearby allies.

I'd go with this (though I'd still like him to have some threatening melee weapons - like the 5th edition Huskblade). I also think he should be the most commander-y of our HQs in terms of support abilities (or wargear). But yeah, he should really be the most flexible in terms of role and definitely in terms of wargear.

FuelDrop wrote:

The Haemonculus should be a defensive buff specialist, the team medic if you will. Not a slouch in combat, but more geared to outlast the enemy than to destroy them before they can strike back. The toughness boosting aura is an excellent example of what they should have, but they need more. Even if it's wargear options or something like what Fabius Bile got in the chaos codex, giving a buff at the risk of some mortal wounds.

I think Haemonculi should either automatically regenerate a wound each turn (Urien could get back d3) or else have healing abilities like Apocatheries. It would also make sense if their PfP save was improved to 5+.

FuelDrop wrote:

EDIT: Sorry, the Succubus is tied in last place for number of attacks with our Melee Focused PHOENIX LORD! My mistake.

The Shredder wrote:

FuelDrop wrote:

Succubus should not have the least attacks of the DE HQ options. I would have thought this was a no brainer but apparently not at GW headquarters...

Really, the Succubus should be terrifying in melee, able to take on other characters and monsters with at least even odds, due to having centuries or even millennia of experience fighting the most skilled fighters and dangerous monsters that can be captured and dragged into the arena.

With the wound boost that everything got this edition she needs to do at least 2 damage per hit, and have enough attacks to deal with hordes. Frankly, if you up the Glaive's damage to 2 and removed the hit penalty, and upped the Succubus to base 6 attacks, she would be a genuinely scary opponent. Maybe give her a rule that lets her reroll failed wounds vs monsters too? Or even infantry and monsters, so she can carve through cannon fodder like a knife through butter while still being a significant threat to any monstrous creature or character dumb enough to come within arms reach.

Seeing a Succubus charging at your squad should be the last thing you ever see. They should be just that badass in melee, to compensate for their very limited support, durability, and ranged capabilities.

Would it make more sense to give the Succubus rerolls against characters?

Otherwise I agree. She should embody the melee glass cannon - fragile but woe betide you if she gets to attack you.

Frankly, I would be tempted to give the Succubus an innate AP value (say -3 for succubus, -4 for Lilith) that overrides whatever their weapon has (unless the weapon's is better) due to sheer skill. Hell, give a -1 version for Wyches and a -2 version for Bloodbrides! Then give them a mere knife as standard issue, if you want truly bare bones badass.

Buff the Succubus's aura to be reroll 1's to hit and reroll 1's to wound non-vehicles, in melee and wych cult only. Gives her a huge support buff that helps compensate our main weakness a bit. Have Lilith's be flat rerolls on both, her cult is just that driven to excel when under her eye.

FuelDrop wrote:

...
Buff the Succubus's aura to be reroll 1's to hit and reroll 1's to wound non-vehicles, in melee and wych cult only. Gives her a huge support buff that helps compensate our main weakness a bit. Have Lilith's be flat rerolls on both, her cult is just that driven to excel when under her eye.

Now that would make Wych Cult units finally useful and hand us the buff vector we really need for them.

Honestly, I think the best solution for the Succubus is to give the her 5 attacks and make the Archite Glaive 2 modes again:
- Two Handed: Sx2, AP-3, D2, -1 to hit
- Single Handed: S+2, AP-3, D1, two additional attacks

The first will work against the truely heavy stuff like TEQ or Nurgle lists, while that latter mode can munch through hordes of MEQ. Problem solved.


@Shredder I like the idea of re-rolling wounds against Characters, but I think that should be Lelith only. This girl seriously needs more power (and a reasonable price reduction) because of her garbage S3.


And for the Archon, I set high hopes into the wargear list. Can we please have a useful Soul-Trap again?  Give him that, make the Huskblade AP-3 and I think he could get done a lot of work in melee.
I think the Huskblade will be surprisingly effective once it's Str4, 5 or 6.

But speaking of Archons, I don't even think we even need him being good in combat. My personal dream would be if Archons get a "Marked for Death" ability like they had in the Purge Coterie from the Start Collecting box.
Instead of shooting, he can choose an enemy target within 12" and all <Kabal> units will re-roll wounds against this target.

Basically an equivalent to the CWE's Doom without being a psychic power. It would also allow Archons to do something useful in the shooting phase.

Has anyone else found it strange that the No Escape Ability doesn't scale with the relative skill level of the Cults?
The basic warrior, the elite clique of gladiators, the Queens of the Arena, and the literal best gladiatrix in the galaxy are all exactly as skilled when preventing a unit from escaping.

More on the point, I agree that Succubi need a lot more oomph. I think Leilith is in need of help as well. First, she should probably have an aura in addition to the Succubi's. And she should be built to go after characters, only characters, and do a damn fine job of it. I think most of her problems can be solved by giving her another couple of attacks, lowering the AP of the Penetrating Blade to -3, upping the damage to 2/D3/maybe three then giving it the ability to cause some mortal wounds in addition. Oh and take her off drugs for [expletive]'s sake.

As, yet another tangent. I'm not sure what role Rakarth is supposed to fill this edition. The Ichor Injector got nerfed, the Casket of Flensing is still nothing to write home about --- even if it's the only relic remaining in our Index --- he lost his regenerative abilities, and, like with Leilith, his Aura is just the standard version with "Prophets of Flesh" keeping it from being an exact copy paste. The Haemy easily outclasses him in melee, at range, at effective cost relative to his support ability. I loved him last edition, despite some cost concerns, but now he just seems kinda...there...
Thoughts?

You would expect the likes of Lelith and such to be better at stopping their prey from leaving. Lelith certainly shouldn't be on combat drugs, she's too good to need them as per her lore. Against characters she should run circles round them, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to take on a few standard peep's at a time.

Urien is also a firm favourite of mine, but by lord is he hopeless in combat. near impossible to kill but does nothing to make that trait useful. a friend did a spreadsheet and against even Pheonix lords they struggled to put him down but in time he did fall. On said spreadsheet though he just does no damage.

On the subject of Urien; Why the hell does he not have Khaedeshi Heamovores? Always puzzled me.

TheBaconPope wrote:

Has anyone else found it strange that the No Escape Ability doesn't scale with the relative skill level of the Cults?

Why would it? Nothing else does.

I mean, our 'Elite' wyches get a single extra attack over the normal ones and that's it. No increase in stats. No doubling up on Combat Drugs. No taking extra weapons. No improvement in survivability.

TheBaconPope wrote:

As, yet another tangent. I'm not sure what role Rakarth is supposed to fill this edition. The Ichor Injector got nerfed, the Casket of Flensing is still nothing to write home about --- even if it's the only relic remaining in our Index --- he lost his regenerative abilities, and, like with Leilith, his Aura is just the standard version with "Prophets of Flesh" keeping it from being an exact copy paste. The Haemy easily outclasses him in melee, at range, at effective cost relative to his support ability. I loved him last edition, despite some cost concerns, but now he just seems kinda...there...
Thoughts?

Well, I think the first step would be to give Urien back his regeneration. Then I'd remove the stupid 'one attack per fight phase' rule from the Ichor Injector. I'm also curious as to why he has fewer attacks than a regular Haemonculus.

I'd also drop the 'one use only' rule from the Casket of Flensing (it's very similar to the Destroyer Hive and that can be fired any number of times).

Finally, I'd give him an extra buff of some sort - maybe allow him to upgrade a single unit of Grotesques with S6 or -1AP or something like that.

URIEN wrote:

On the subject of Urien; Why the hell does he not have Khaedeshi Heamovores? Always puzzled me.

That's a very good point.[/quote]

Thankyou! Bring back the uber grotesques, or at least the buff from the grotesquerie formation.

URIEN wrote:

Thankyou! Bring back the uber grotesques, or at least the buff from the grotesquerie formation.

The Grotesquerie is pretty much incorporated into the Haemonculus' buff. We used to get T6 Grotesques only with a Grotesquerie, now we can get it reliably. Too bad T6 doesn't mean that much anymore.

Regarding Urien, I think he should have some really powerful abilities. An unlimited Casket of Flensing would be a good start, but the ability to heal surrounding units (prefferably by the means of sucking off the life force of enmies) or mass-leadership manipulation would make him such a rich tactical choice.

TheBaconPope wrote:

More on the point, I agree that Succubi need a lot more oomph.  I think Leilith is in need of help as well. First, she should probably have an aura in addition to the Succubi's. And she should be built to go after characters, only characters, and do a damn fine job of it. I think most of her problems can be solved by giving her another couple of attacks, lowering the AP of the Penetrating Blade to -3, upping the damage to 2/D3/maybe three then giving it the ability to cause some mortal wounds in addition. Oh and take her off drugs for [expletive]'s sake.

As, yet another tangent. I'm not sure what role Rakarth is supposed to fill this edition. The Ichor Injector got nerfed, the Casket of Flensing is still nothing to write home about --- even if it's the only relic remaining in our Index --- he lost his regenerative abilities, and, like with Leilith, his Aura is just the standard version with "Prophets of Flesh" keeping it from being an exact copy paste. The Haemy easily outclasses him in melee, at range, at effective cost relative to his support ability. I loved him last edition, despite some cost concerns, but now he just seems kinda...there...
Thoughts?

My first two games of 8th I ran Urien and Lelith in a raider with an eight man unit of wracks. Urien might be the hardest HQ to kill and Lelith is there to keep characters from killing him. The wracks were just bullet sponge.

It went well enough. I never used them as a forward assualt unit but, I didn't give up slay the warlord and Lelith killed a wolf battle leader and a librarian in one game. Damage output aside from that was minimal.

Since then I've been taking Archons in venoms with agonizers and blasters.

Currently, I've got a list with two haemonculii and one Archon that is unplayed. The haemonculii go with squads of grotesques and the Archon does his thing in a venom. Grotesques are so expensive this edition and without their reroll to wound things toughness 4 I'm not convinced they can hold up. That said they are intended to be suicide units and potentially deal with larger squads of strength 3 blobs..maybe