How would you fix reavers?

I still love reavers and can make them work in 8th but I'm in the minority and i definitely understand why, but anyway...

How would you do a much better job than GW was capable of and make reavers a viable yet balanced choice in 8th?

I would change it so every model can take a Grav Talon.
To balance that out, I would change them back to having only one wound.

Real glass cannon mechanics.

I think a 5++ to show of their agility and speed. That or the enemy suffers a -1 to hit them via shooting. If a straight -1 is too good then a -1 to be shot at if the reavers advance

I would not really change them. They are good enough as they are, but they fill a small role. I'd give them that -1 to hit to lessen the incentive on using T drug with them. AA weapons and the likes of Heldrakes will still wreck them, but it would help. Would not change anything else.

What I would change is Heat Lance.

I've not had the chance to use them yet, but I intend to put a few heat lances on my Reavers.
Why do they attract so much negativity - is it their point cost?
The D6 damage looks good on paper, no?

Groan wrote:

I've not had the chance to use them yet, but I intend to put a few heat lances on my Reavers.
Why do they attract so much negativity - is it their point cost?
The D6 damage looks good on paper, no?

Yeah that is the heat lances points. The heat lances being 20pts would be a lot better. Same damage as our dark lances, slightly better ap, melta and assault. But the heat lance is also half the range and only st6.

The heat lance Wounding most big things on 5s isn't nearly as reliable as wounding the big things on 3s and 4s like blasters and dark lances

I'd give them their old blade vane rule back. The voidraven essentially has it, why not them? It was thematic, scummy, and fun. Everything you want from the Dark Elder.

Blade vanes: when at least one model in this unit advances over an enemy unit, roll a d6 for every model in the enemy unit up to the number of models in the moving reaver unit. For each 4+ the unit suffers a wound (roll saves as normal) for each roll of a 6+ the unit suffers a mortal wound.

Cluster caltrops: if a model equipped with cluster caltrops uses its blade vanes in the moment phase and successfully wounds a model, that enemy model takes d6 damage instead.

Or something like that. >_<

Fly by attacks. One attack S4 for each reaver, one mortal wounds for each grav talon and D6 attacks S3 for cultrops. Need to hit rolls as normal

They suffer the same fate as all bikers and 2W models in general. They are awfully easy to remove for the cost...

EDIT: Not that making bikes 1W and cheaper would make them any better. As I said -1 to hit when they advance and perhaps giving them TL-weapons as any other bikers have would make them much more useful IMO.

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They are awfully easy to remove for the cost...

See, that's the way DE are supposed to be. I'm just hesitant to pay 30 points for what essentially amounts to a Wych with a Splinter Rifle.

Yep, it's a shame to consider that they have the same offensive potential as a Kabalite warrior, while being 23pts more expensive.
Of course, they are quite good in melee. But costing 3 times more than wyches, it's not worth it either.

TheBaconPope wrote:

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They are awfully easy to remove for the cost...

See, that's the way DE are supposed to be. I'm just hesitant to pay 30 points for what essentially amounts to a Wych with a Splinter Rifle.

But I mean bikes in general. Anyway, I am still using them and they still win me points on a regular basis and are difficult to remove if they are not in the main field of view of the enemy. I think we are just too used to charge them into something.

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Yep, it's a shame to consider that they have the same offensive potential as a Kabalite warrior, while being 23pts more expensive.
Of course, they are quite good in melee. But costing 3 times more than wyches, it's not worth it either.

They really just lack synergy. For the same points, Kabs will put out more damage at range, Wyches, or beasts, or Incubi will put our more damage in melee, and Mandrakes will provide more mortal wounds. What's left is a fragile, but expensive, unit, trying to fulfill three roles already covered in the army. So in the end, you have a bunch of models that are just...there..

Why is everyone so concerned about damage? Missions are not only about damage, they are actually about being "there".

What good is killing 5 more marines if you cannot reach the objective at the far end of the board?

You can drug a chunky squad up to be T5 - given that most shooting is S4 it could make a difference. Probably not much mind.

Anything useful to be done with their 24" total move?

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Anything useful to be done with their 24" total move?

If they somehow manage to survive until late game, it can grab the odd objective. But usually it'll just set them up for a turn 2 charge, normally ending with their demise at the hands of rapid firing weapons

TheBaconPope wrote:

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Anything useful to be done with their 24" total move?

If they somehow manage to survive until late game, it can grab the odd objective. But usually it'll just set them up for a turn 2 charge, normally ending with their demise at the hands of rapid firing weapons

Try hugging table edge with them and going after backfield and support your DSing Scourges. I usually maneuver them into the parking lot from one side and drop scourges on the other side. Once surrounded 3 tanks with my Scourges and Reavers so they could not fall back and were disabled there rather nicely. And they were standing on a nice objective too.

Surrounding tp prevent a tank from falling back seems nice. But you could do that wit mandrakes too.

CptMetal wrote:

Surrounding tp prevent a tank from falling back seems nice. But you could do that wit mandrakes too.

Of course, but they are resin...

If you form a circle around an enemy when in CC, is that enemy unable to pass through you and fall back?

If so, that's pretty awesome.

I would simply give them half the wounds for half the price.

I don't know what GW was thinking when they decided to give bike units 2 wounds. They already have increased toughness for additional survivability.

Groan wrote:

If you form a circle around an enemy when in CC, is that enemy unable to pass through you and fall back?

If so, that's pretty awesome.

Yes. They cannot move within 1" of your models while moving. Only the bases count for that, unless the model has no base, or has the "hover" special rule.

i think rules wise they are perfectly fine they are a solid general purpose unit which generally we lack, most of our units do better when specializing into a role, but are too expensive. I would reduce the cost per model by 3-7 points. Probably 5 but i could see arguments for slightly more or less.

Another problem is the competition for the Assault Bike slot. Shining Spears in particular are an absolutely staggering impact squad, putting out lots of ST 6 hits at AP -4 while being much more survivable and shootier than Reavers, while not being massively more expensive.

Easy, let each on have upgrades like every other eldar bikes, Windrider, Skyweavers and Cloud Dancers all can have 1 weapon per.

Reavers just need 1 Weapon per