Talos Mathmmer

Howdy y'all. Wanted to discuss the good 'ol Talos today and how it compares resiliency wise against Ranged Weapons. I'll start off with the results and the rest of the post will be the math involved. Really wish I knew how tables worked here...

Talos = 126 pts = 18 Kabalite Warriors

T6, 7W    vs.    T3, 18W

Lasguns (GEQ)
Boltguns (SM)
Bolt Rifles "
Supercharged Plasma Gun "
Lascannon "

303  vs.  130 ___(2.33) = 303 / 130
114  vs.   73 ___(1.56)
76    vs.   58 ___(1.31)
15    vs.   33 ___(0.455)
7      vs.   33 ___(0.212)

So there you have it, I'll put the rest of the stuff in spoiler sections. Check if you'd like.

Point Efficiency:

Kabalite Resiliency:

Talos Resiliency:

Power Level Efficiency:

Myhanks.

My view of this is exactly that, I try to balance my units based on the threat that they perceive. If the opponent is focusing on Talos they aren't shooting something else.

Balance is important!

The real question is what's a better Talos loadout?

Great stuff Barrywise. Thanx mate.

lmrz wrote:

Myhanks.

My view of this is exactly that, I try to balance my units based on the threat that they perceive. If the opponent is focusing on Talos they aren't shooting something else.

Balance is important!

Agreed.

lmrz wrote:

The real question is what's a better Talos loadout?

A cheap one is my experience.
I believe Barrywise has gone with the twin macroscalpels and splinter cannons which is an efficient option.
You could make them even cheaper with the stinger pod. Their pts efficiency would improve slightly.

Talos are good.

If people would like, I can set up a google Document of all the DE units. I want to compare a Talos to a Raider next, along with figuring out point efficiency on offense.

I've struggled myself to incorporate Taloi into my armies in 8th despite being a huge Coven fanboy.

Barrywise wrote:

If people would like, I can set up a google Document of all the DE units. I want to compare a Talos to a Raider next, along with figuring out point efficiency on offense.

Although they can both target the same things with shooting, isn't comparing two units with completely different roles a comparing apples to oranges situation?

It's about seeing which one, from the Apple or the Orange, will explode first to a Guillaume Tell arbalest.

Evil Space Elves wrote:

Barrywise wrote:

If people would like, I can set up a google Document of all the DE units. I want to compare a Talos to a Raider next, along with figuring out point efficiency on offense.

Although they can both target the same things with shooting, isn't comparing two units with completely different roles a comparing apples to oranges situation?

Oh yeah absolutely. Running through all the math and making the post took me an hour at least. The end goal is to have an entire spreadsheet showing point efficiencies defensively and offensively.

My hope for the spreadsheet, would be to further spark discussion about which units are good or bad and why other than "I don't like them" or "they didn't work for me." Instead, Im hoping for something like "well, I'm playing Coven, but they're very susceptible to Heavy weapons. What should I bring to support them and be able to knock out some of those bigger guns?" And then the argument would go "Vehicles or dev squads?" Scourges are more point effective against vehicles, Mandrakes are overall effective because mortal wounds. Venoms can dish out the hurt with poison and be survivable.

Etc etc. I originally got the idea when I saw a SM player over on Dakka make a huge spreadsheet of all their weapons and how effective they are against different toughnesses and armor values. I'm going to have an absolute wreck of a time trying to figure everything out, depending on how people take their drugs. I think it'll be worth it though.

Also, Im hoping the results will further back up my argument that Power Levels might be better for tournament/competitive games if units are allowed to switch their special weapons between games.

We shall see

Edit: I think the most interesting thing from all the work I did is that a Lascannon BS 3+, on average, makes back 18 points every time it shoots at a Talos. A Talos has 7 wounds. 126/7 = 18 pts per wound.

I could give you all my shooting data for all DE weapons for that spreadsheet if you like.

I would love nothing more. Gonna have to figure out to use a spread sheet too.

LIFE SKILLLS

Also don't want to steal your thunder, want to work on it together and I can just put all my defense stuff on a separate page of a google doc or something?

I think if I were going to try them I'd go Stinger Pod plus Twin Liquifier Gun. It's 14pts more than the starting layout to be able to mulch hordes. Well worth the loss of 1 Attack imo.

So you don't think the minimal AP of the macroscalpel is worth anything in melee?

Lord Johan wrote:

I could give you all my shooting data for all DE weapons for that spreadsheet if you like.

Realistically, all you would have to add is hits, and then doing points/wounds caused by a weapon and you've achieved point efficiency

Sure. I'll post them in spreadsheet form later after work or weekend latest for easier copying. If you need to know something right now, the avg. wounds for all of our weapons can be found in "expected wounds for drukhari index-weapons vs a variety of targets" a few threads down.

Jimsolo wrote:

So you don't think the minimal AP of the macroscalpel is worth anything in melee?

Yeah it's worth something! But you're not trading away both your MacroScalpels for this load out, just 1 Attack. And dropping 1 Attack and paying 20ish more points for a Twin Liquifier Gun seems like a better investment.

Lord Johan wrote:

Sure. I'll post them in spreadsheet form later after work or weekend latest for easier copying. If you need to know something right now, the avg. wounds for all of our weapons can be found in "expected wounds for drukhari index-weapons vs a variety of targets" a few threads down.

Thanks! I've been editing Lord Splata's Mathammer spreadsheet he made a few weeks ago

Sent you the full spreadsheet incl. the weapon values used and also the smaller steps of how the formula was derived so you can check the work. You can message me if you want to know details.

I'll probably do close combat weapons next weekend, unless Lord Splata already did. Where's his work?

Looking forward to your results! For the glory of Commorragh and the True Kin

I'll pm you a link when I get home tonight.

Quick update for those interested, I'm on vacation for the next two weekends so you're not getting anything. lol.

Something I'd like to add to the discussion, to put the number into a little bit better of perspective.

On average using the #'s in ()'s from the original post. 18 Kabalites x that number. All this is defense/survival oriented

Lasguns, the Talos is equivalent to 41.94 Kabalites

Bolters, the Talos is equivalent to 28.08 Kabalites

Bolt Rifles, the Talos is = to 23.58 Kabalites

Charged Plasma, the Talos = to 8.19 Kabalites

Lascannons, the Talos = to 3.816 Kabalites

I think this shows what exactly the coven this edition are all about. Being able to shrug off small arms fire, but get roasted by multiwound weapons. If building a CC oriented army. You need to find a way to shut down heavy weapons, either through alpha strike Deepstrikes or tying them up.

Or more talos.

MOAR TALOS

CAPTAIN WE'RE REACHING TALOS LEVELS THAT SHOULDNT BE POSSIBLE

Taloi drawing AT fire away from our raiders, ravagers, reapers, RWJ is winning in my exp.

The problem with him is that it is not a threat. He doesn't put damage, not enough to consider to shoot him down. Basically, if the opponent is shooting him he mades a mistake. When he realize it, he will simply shoot down the rest of the army, ignoring the Talos as well (and focussing it when is better for him, not for you).

Anything in this index is a major threat. Why I have to shoot at the Taloi, when I can shoot against any other DE unit that will fire me back OR get the position for a next assault on me?

Cerve wrote:

The problem with him is that it is not a threat. He doesn't put damage, not enough to consider to shoot him down. Basically, if the opponent is shooting him he mades a mistake. When he realize it, he will simply shoot down the rest of the army, ignoring the Talos as well (and focussing it when is better for him, not for you).

Anything in this index is a major threat. Why I have to shoot at the Taloi, when I can shoot against any other DE unit that will fire me back OR get the position for a next assault on me?

Agreed IMHO the talos and chronos are our weakest heavy support units this edition. The ravager, tantalus, and reaper are just so good right now, especially the ravager.

Cerve wrote:

Why I have to shoot at the Taloi, when I can shoot against any other DE unit that will fire me back OR get the position for a next assault on me?

The talos is one of those DE units that will be in position to assault you next turn.

8" + run 1st turn + 8" + assault with re-roll + 1" to be in CC range 2nd turn =20"-35" threat range in 2 turns.