New to Dark Eldar, tell me what you think. 2k Army.

Hey guys, I've played Orks for a long time. But recently bought a Dark Eldar amy, which I've fallen in love with.  This is the army list I have built.  This is like 90% of the units I have save for 5 scourges which I’m not a huge fan of. (Maybe I’m wrong and they are awesome units) I like to stick to 2000 point games.  

I was wondering what you guys thought of this list?  I was thinking about getting a bomber and some wyches to support Lelith since currently it’s a very shootie army and she is kind of awkward in this list (I’ve noticed there are no really good melee units for Dark Eldar.  But PLEASE take that with a grain of salt… I’m use to 30 boyz each hitting on 3+ with 4 attacks each.)

TL;DR: Tell me if the list is bad and if I need to add anything.


+ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [101 PL, 2000pts] ++

+ HQ [11 PL, 193pts] +

Archon [4 PL, 68pts]: Agoniser, Blast Pistol

Lelith Hesperax [7 PL, 125pts]: Penetrating blade

+ Troops [12 PL, 212pts] +

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 53pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 53pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 53pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 53pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

+ Fast Attack [20 PL, 375pts] +

Reavers [20 PL, 375pts]: Arena Champion, 3x Grav-Talon, 11x Reaver

+ Heavy Support [24 PL, 465pts] +

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

+ Dedicated Transport [34 PL, 755pts] +

Raider [6 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [6 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [6 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon
++ Total: [101 PL, 2000pts] ++

sethlight wrote:

Hey guys, I've played Orks for a long time. But recently bought a Dark Eldar amy, which I've fallen in love with.

I think that is good, I made the reverse transition myself but I find optimal Ork and DE playstyle to be very similar in many respects. We're both quantity over quality armies, though DE are the more elite and finicky of the pair, natch

sethlight wrote:

This is the army list I have built.  This is like 90% of the units I have save for 5 scourges which I’m not a huge fan of. (Maybe I’m wrong and they are awesome units) I like to stick to 2000 point games.  

I think you will find they are quite good - though I don't think they're so good that you should feel obligated to play them if you don't like their look/fluff/playstyle.

sethlight wrote:

Archon [4 PL, 68pts]: Agoniser, Blast Pistol

Lelith Hesperax [7 PL, 125pts]: Penetrating blade

I'll start with saying that I question the value of a close combat Archon (I would tend to suggest just giving him a Blaster and letting him sit with Warriors/Trueborn.
I also love Lelith, but will note that the Succubus is almost as good in assault, and quite a bit cheaper, so you may with to consider that to get yourself some extra points.

Also, looking at your troop selection I find myself wondering why you're even fielding either of these. You literally have no assault tools that are being benefited here. It's like you took an army of Lootas and a tricked out Warboss - what's the point?

I saw your earlier comment about assault options, and I will now scoff at them;
*harumph*
We have some excellent assault tools, it's just that we have a stiletto and you're looking for a sledgehammer. For something in the Ork milieu I would suggest you look at Beasts, getting a Beastmaster and some assorted gribblies will probably give you that blobby, massive handful of dice feeling you're kind of looking for.
For solid pairing with Lelith I would suggest either a squad of 9 Wyches in a Raider (I would give Lelith the +1 Str Drug, the Wyches the +1 Attack drug, and buy them up some hydra gauntlets and an Agoniser) You will then have a squad generating 27 attacks, re-rolling 1s, hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4-5+ (with some additional re-rolls) against most units + everything Lelith does.

sethlight wrote:

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 53pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 53pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 53pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 53pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Splinter Rifle

Your mileage may vary, but I find PGLs to be of pretty limited use in the game. Most things are either small squads, that you'll gun down without morale, or larger blobs that have morale tech attached that does more than the -1. Just keep the question in your mind as you play some games and see if they do or don't help that often.

Otherwise I love this setup and selection, Warriors with Blasters are very potent.

sethlight wrote:

Reavers [20 PL, 375pts]: Arena Champion, 3x Grav-Talon, 11x Reaver

I think this unit is criminally pricey for what it will give you. 375 points for maybe 3 mortal wounds? Most psykers are laughing at us.
Yeah, they're fast and fairly durable (especially with the +1 Toughness drug you should give them) but their damage output, even close to Lelith, will be pretty paltry compared to what you could get with some Wyches or Incubi paying far less.

They are very fun to play though, so since you presumably already have them give them a whirl - just remember that this is costing you far more than 2 Ravagers - and pay attention to which is helping you kill more stuff.

sethlight wrote:

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Pretty much it's impossible to go wrong with Ravagers.
I see you put your Dissies on Raiders, I prefer to have them on one Ravager - maybe try both setups a few times and see what works best for you. I find it's an advantage when dealing with Blob armies to be able to keep my anti-infantry boat out of range of the blob while still being able to have my infantry squads within optimal range, to make it harder for my opponent to counter my range.

sethlight wrote:

Raider [6 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [6 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Raider [6 PL, 125pts]: Disintegrator cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

I would suggest that the extra s.cannon on the Venoms is just meaninglessly expensive.
Compare and contrast the points this way;
TL splinter rifle - free - 2 shots at 24" 4 shots at 12"
vs.
S.Cannon - 15 points - 3 shots at 36" 6 shots at 18"
It's better, sure, but is it the cost of an entire Blaster better? I think it isn't, as usually you'll be looking to get within 12" for the Warriors anyway (or...maybe for your Assault HQs who are riding them alone? Eh, you'll change that hopefully ) But I would suggest the save points there could go to some better stuff easily.

I don't see a Void Raven helping you a lot, but it's mostly because I think the Void Raven is, at best, 'meh' this edition (which is better than it was, but still )
Take a look at the Razorwing JetFighter instead - for the same cost as a Ravager you can get a jet with 2 lances, a TL s.rifle, and the missiles - that's a good deal on a very versatile and effective killing machine.

My thoughts, hope they help.
Thor.

First... Wow! Thank you so much for such a well thought out post!  Wow! Thank you for taking the time!

How do you play scourges?  Personally I was thinking if I were ever to use them to give them 4 dark lances (Heat lances are kinda meh because you can't get the bonus when deepstriking) or give them 4 shredders to kill some select infantry.

Thor665 wrote:

I'll start with saying that I question the value of a close combat Archon (I would tend to suggest just giving him a Blaster and letting him sit with Warriors/Trueborn.
I also love Lelith, but will note that the Succubus is almost as good in assault, and quite a bit cheaper, so you may with to consider that to get yourself some extra points.

Also, looking at your troop selection I find myself wondering why you're even fielding either of these. You literally have no assault tools that are being benefited here. It's like you took an army of Lootas and a tricked out Warboss - what's the point?

Ya, that is one REALLY awkward thing about this army.  Do you think I should buy some wyches or maybe some of those bloodbrides?  (I didn't realize that they are the same model as the normal troop version!!  So strange! Everyone knows the more you beat things up the bigger you get, how come ‘dey the same size?)

And yes, those flesh gauntlets are nasty since they will be hitting on 2s (with strength from pain) with rerolling 1s anyways (Lel).  Also, the bikes don't get Lel’s buff

Are these any HQs that you think match this shooty army?

Thor665 wrote:

I saw your earlier comment about assault options, and I will now scoff at them;
*harumph*
We have some excellent assault tools, it's just that we have a stiletto and you're looking for a sledgehammer. For something in the Ork milieu I would suggest you look at Beasts, getting a Beastmaster and some assorted gribblies will probably give you that blobby, massive handful of dice feeling you're kind of looking for.
For solid pairing with Lelith I would suggest either a squad of 9 Wyches in a Raider (I would give Lelith the +1 Str Drug, the Wyches the +1 Attack drug, and buy them up some hydra gauntlets and an Agoniser) You will then have a squad generating 27 attacks, re-rolling 1s, hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4-5+ (with some additional re-rolls) against most units + everything Lelith does.

Like I said, Orks have spoiled me xD You can't really top 120 attacks (And that’s just base from 1 group of boyz, it can easily get up to 150 attacks, hitting on 2, wounding on 3s or 4s.)  But naa I want to stay away from the horde.  I'm a bit burnt out on moving 100+ models around.  Hence the Wyches since they will be a smaller group to play with and they will be in a transport.

However, I will say Incubi look really nasty too.  But I would need to swap out for the Incubi hero instead.  What are your thoughts?

Also, what about Mandrakes?  I thought they might be really solid to drop on turn 2.  They shoot then charge.

Thor665 wrote:

I would suggest that the extra s.cannon on the Venoms is just meaninglessly expensive.
Compare and contrast the points this way;
TL splinter rifle - free - 2 shots at 24" 4 shots at 12"
vs.
S.Cannon - 15 points - 3 shots at 36" 6 shots at 18"
It's better, sure, but is it the cost of an entire Blaster better? I think it isn't, as usually you'll be looking to get within 12" for the Warriors anyway (or...maybe for your Assault HQs who are riding them alone? Eh, you'll change that hopefully Wink ) But I would suggest the save points there could go to some better stuff easily.

I’ll definitely take your advice on the venom.  The main reason I took the 2nd cannon and the fear gas is how well they all synergize with the baster.  But I’m thinking they are a waste of points now as well.

And lastly, the dark elder bomber.  It’s funny, Orks freak their out over our bomber that hits up to 10 times on a 4+ with infantry.  The dark elder bomber is our fire and normal bomber meshed into one hell beast. (the dark elder one is 50 more points though)

Quote :

However, I will say Incubi look really nasty too. But I would need to swap out for the Incubi hero instead. What are your thoughts?

Drazhar's aura is giving +1 to hit to units that already have 2+ WS by turn 3. He is immensely flawed in design, and quite frankly absolutly useless.
Incubi are great on their own. Mandrakes are also great, even though i'm not comfortable with making them charge the turn they arrive : rolling 9, even with a reroll, is risky.

sethlight wrote:

How do you play scourges?  Personally I was thinking if I were ever to use them to give them 4 dark lances (Heat lances are kinda meh because you can't get the bonus when deepstriking) or give them 4 shredders to kill some select infantry.

At the moment, I don't see Shredders as worth it.
I know that a lot of players favor the dark lance on Scourges - I am not one of those players as I use Blasters, but I will offer their argument for the sake of your consideration.

The negative to taking a Dark Lance is that it's going to hit on a 4+ not a 3+ on the turn you deep strike (and whenever you have to move thereafter)
The benefit is that you can drop in far enough away that you won't get killed immediately by the enemy and probably won't have to move much thereafter. Also you'll get d6 damage as opposed to d3, huzzah!

I like to use Blasters though because;
1. I prefer hitting on the 3+
2. I like to move my Scourges around to maximize their target options.
3. If I wanted non-moving snipes I'd do it with Trueborn for cheaper
4. I think there are meta advantages to Blasters (Necrons) and I already have a lot of lances elsewhere in my army.
5. I don't care if my opponent tries to kill off the Scourges - and don't see how an extra 18" of distance will actually make much of a difference even if I did.
6. Cheaper.

Both arguments have some merit and you can consider either - but naturally I think I'm right

sethlight wrote:

Ya, that is one REALLY awkward thing about this army.  Do you think I should buy some wyches or maybe some of those bloodbrides?  (I didn't realize that they are the same model as the normal troop version!!  So strange! Everyone knows the more you beat things up the bigger you get, how come ‘dey the same size?)

I tend to like Wyches and tend to think Bloodbrides are too expensive for what you gain.

sethlight wrote:

And yes, those flesh gauntlets are nasty since they will be hitting on 2s (with strength from pain) with rerolling 1s anyways (Lel).  Also, the bikes don't get Lel’s buff

The bikes do get Lelith's buff if they're in range of it - they are a Wych Cult unit, all you need to do is make them Wych Cult of Strife and they're good, and if you're taking Lelith all of your Wych Cult units should be Wych Cult of Strife, natch

sethlight wrote:

Are these any HQs that you think match this shooty army?

I would say that the optimal shooting HQ is the Archon with a Blaster (and maybe PGL if you want to go that way, though I don't)
He is very affordable, he is accurate with a Blaster, and he's enough of a h2h threat to at least help bop some noses when you do get charged, but without costing much either.

sethlight wrote:

However, I will say Incubi look really nasty too.  But I would need to swap out for the Incubi hero instead.  What are your thoughts?

I think Drahz is pretty 'meh' for his cost - just take some extra Incubi and you'd do better.
Leaving Incubi with Lelith or a Succubus, or an Archon is a perfectly valid option even if the bubbles won't help them particularly.

sethlight wrote:

Also, what about Mandrakes?  I thought they might be really solid to drop on turn 2.  They shoot then charge.

I think Mandrakes are okay. Some people seem to think they're amazing (and I want to see batreps to back that up ) but they're at least 'not bad'. They'll do fine if you want them. Just remember they are primarially a shooting unit, the assault is just for mopping up already mauled squads or to tie something up to prevent shooting. They are not assault experts.

Quote :

The negative to taking a Dark Lance is that it's going to hit on a 4+ not a 3+ on the turn you deep strike (and whenever you have to move thereafter)
The benefit is that you can drop in far enough away that you won't get killed immediately by the enemy and probably won't have to move much thereafter. Also you'll get d6 damage as opposed to d3, huzzah!

Dark Lances have a better damage output than blasters even on the move.
I did the math, and if you divide the damage output by the price of the weapon the DL is still ahead.
So DLs are superior to Blasters in almost every way, the only exceptions being 1W targets (where the dmg difference does not matter) and Quantum Shieldings (where they work the same).

As I recall we had a conversation about the Blaster v. Dark Lance as far as Quantum Shielding went, and we ended up concluding that the Blaster was more efficient. They are also obviously more efficient against 1 W models - and are only barely edged out against multi-wound models at an increased price point.

I also crunched the numbers to divide by price and got the following;

.059 Blaster
.049 Dark Lance

That said, maybe I'm doing the math wrong (presumed 3+ to wound, gets about .59 chance for each 1-3 wounds and the Lance gets a .22 for each 1-6 on wounds. The Lance gets a better higher overall theory damage, but the Blaster wins in breaking it down by the cost paid, yeah? Feel free to double check me, as I said, I could be doing the math quite wrong - I'm a film major

I'm not exactly a statistician either (literature teacher), but i think it's more reasonable to divide by the price of the squad, right ?
So 6.2 damage for a Lance Scourges squad that costs 150pts => 0.041
And 3.5 damage for a Blaster scourges squad that costs 130pts => 0.027

Which leads me to consider that DL scourges are a better buy. And this isn't factoring the range ofc.

You are right, though, i remember being surprised by the results of the Quantum Shielding maths. MB.

Mppqlmd wrote:

I'm not exactly a statistician either (literature teacher), but i think it's more reasonable to divide by the price of the squad, right ?
So 6.2 damage for a Lance Scourges squad that costs 150pts => 0.041
And 3.5 damage for a Blaster scourges squad that costs 130pts => 0.027

Functionally the end result should come out roughly the same, so the two of us are clearly crunching different numbers I think. Let's show some work and see if we can puzzle out who is gakking up what;

You're saying 6.2 damage and 3.5, let's see if I can figure those numbers;

4 Lances would get 2 hits, wounding on a 3+ would be 1.33 wounds - by my math that is a 22% chance to then get any given number of damage, so;
.22 for 1
.22 for 2
.22 for 3
.22 for 4
.22 for 5
.22 for 6
Which equates to an average of 3.5 for 4.65 likely wounds caused, not 6.2.

The blaster ends up at a total of 1.77 wounds, which should equate to 59% for any given result, or an average of 2 causing 3.54 wounds

The total costs of the units I probably agree with you on so that would make the value of damage divided by cost for each of them to be;

4 Lance @150 = .031
4 Blaster @130 points = .027
and when just considering the upgrades
Lance = .058
Blaster = .059

So looking back at my old numbers, I probably did something wonky - but looking at yours so did you (unless I did something wonky this time) Dividing off the different considerations also makes a value shift, which I honestly wasn't expecting.
We can see that the Blaster taken in and of itself, is a better value buy for damage caused versus a 4+ accuracy Lance, though by a relatively meaningless margin.
But my differential counting the full cost of the squads is a very narrow margin also, being .004 (or 4%) value difference.

Do you see holes in this math? I'm thinking you're doing something other than averaging the damage caused for your multipliers, but I'm not sure how that gets you an identical number to my Blaster one, but such a larger one for the Lance damage. I'm thinking you futzed something up there.

Considering my army, I'm sticking to my Blasters due to Necrons, which I deal with a lot, and blob character assassination, which is my other major boggle. But I will admit the difference is less telling, and as long as the Scourges don't move after their drop the value shift becomes even more noticeable - probably it would be worth it to me to consider how often I would end up needing to move my Scourges if they had 36" range after their initial drop.

As a thought, were you not counting the Lances as hitting at 4+?
Because I'll happily agree that Blasters are inferior to Lances that both get to hit on 3+, the question to my mind is more the initial drop turn and the value lost.

Quote :

As a thought, were you not counting the Lances as hitting at 4+?

Yup. Little brainfart over there (the *4/6 operation is so common when calculing for DE that it became a reflex).

Mppqlmd wrote:

Quote :

However, I will say Incubi look really nasty too.  But I would need to swap out for the Incubi hero instead.  What are your thoughts?

Drazhar's aura is giving +1 to hit to units that already have 2+ WS by turn 3. He is immensely flawed in design, and quite frankly absolutly useless.
Incubi are great on their own. Mandrakes are also great, even though i'm not comfortable with making them charge the turn they arrive : rolling 9, even with a reroll, is risky.

On 2nd turn you should have about a 47% chance to charge, higher if you're willing to reroll 1 die with a CP.

I do it with boyz a good chunk of the time.

Because boyz are expendable. Mandrakes cost 300% of their price, while not being sturdier (since HtH isn't factored in overwatch).
Trying a charge against some unit that won't charge you next turn if you fail, and won't kill 3 Mandrakes with overwatch, is of course okay.
But against a lot of targets it's better to shoot turn 2, and engage turn 3. Mandrakes aren't a suicidal expendable unit, they're squishy elites.

Thor665 wrote:

Mppqlmd wrote:

I'm not exactly a statistician either (literature teacher), but i think it's more reasonable to divide by the price of the squad, right ?
So 6.2 damage for a Lance Scourges squad that costs 150pts => 0.041
And 3.5 damage for a Blaster scourges squad that costs 130pts => 0.027

Functionally the end result should come out roughly the same, so the two of us are clearly crunching different numbers I think. Let's show some work and see if we can puzzle out who is gakking up what;

You're saying 6.2 damage and 3.5, let's see if I can figure those numbers;

4 Lances would get 2 hits, wounding on a 3+ would be 1.33 wounds - by my math that is a 22% chance to then get any given number of damage, so;
.22 for 1
.22 for 2
.22 for 3
.22 for 4
.22 for 5
.22 for 6
Which equates to an average of 3.5 for 4.65 likely wounds caused, not 6.2.

The blaster ends up at a total of 1.77 wounds, which should equate to 59% for any given result, or an average of 2 causing 3.54 wounds

The total costs of the units I probably agree with you on so that would make the value of damage divided by cost for each of them to be;

4 Lance @150 = .031
4 Blaster @130 points = .027
and when just considering the upgrades
Lance = .058
Blaster = .059

So looking back at my old numbers, I probably did something wonky - but looking at yours so did you (unless I did something wonky this time) Dividing off the different considerations also makes a value shift, which I honestly wasn't expecting.
We can see that the Blaster taken in and of itself, is a better value buy for damage caused versus a 4+ accuracy Lance, though by a relatively meaningless margin.
But my differential counting the full cost of the squads is a very narrow margin also, being .004 (or 4%) value difference.

Do you see holes in this math? I'm thinking you're doing something other than averaging the damage caused for your multipliers, but I'm not sure how that gets you an identical number to my Blaster one, but such a larger one for the Lance damage. I'm thinking you futzed something up there.

Considering my army, I'm sticking to my Blasters due to Necrons, which I deal with a lot, and blob character assassination, which is my other major boggle. But I will admit the difference is less telling, and as long as the Scourges don't move after their drop the value shift becomes even more noticeable - probably it would be worth it to me to consider how often I would end up needing to move my Scourges if they had 36" range after their initial drop.

Thanks for the number crunching Heaven knows I do a lot of it myself as well. I literally have a list of every unit in an excel spreadsheet with the expected damage and cost per point for Orks. Now, I will say though, there is one major factor I don't see people consider a lot: CP. if I roll a 1 on a d3 wep I'll take it. But if it's a d6 you better believe I'm going to roll it and maybe get a 5+