Wyches Cult vs Harlequins which is best?

In a recent episode of the Adeptus Podcastus the question was posed about the viability of the Wych Cult vs that of the Harlequin.
As was mentioned the two are broadly the same both relies on speed, but one has combat drugs and the other psychic powers.

So between the two which is most viable in a tournament?

There's no comparison really, Harlies are significantly better. If we could put Wyches into Harlie transports that might change, but currently Wyches are only good for surrounding a non-flying vehicle or MC and keeping it from falling back.

Every single Harlequin in a troupe can take a Fusion pistol AND a special weapon if they want. They have four attacks base, flip over terrain and models, can advance and charge, and have a 4++ all the time. Their transports have a 4++, better guns, and carry six rather than five models: enough for a character. That character can be a psyker who hands out relevant buffs/debuffs, a Master who lets them re-roll all failed wound rolls, or a character-sniping heavy-weapon guy.

It's no contest at all. If you gave Wyches back (good) haywire grenades, doubled their attacks, let them all take wych-cult weapons, redid those weapons to be actually useful, and let them have their invul all the time... the Harlequins would still be better because of the transports and characters.

Right now you've got me wondering if the other players in my casual meta will let me proxy my wyches as Harle's.

Harliquins. All day, everyday.

This isn't even close from a real question.

Harlequins are better (and I'm mostly playing wych cult, I love the miniatures).

Harlequins.

Hands down.

No contest.

THere is NO reason to EVER take Wyches in ANY army.

Hey! Wyches are in the top three most improved units in 40K! Frankie from FLG said so, so it must be true. And he put his money where his mouth is by using precisely zero Wyches in his 8e army lists!

Count Adhemar wrote:

Hey! Wyches are in the top three most improved units in 40K! Frankie from FLG said so, so it must be true. And he put his money where his mouth is by using precisely zero Wyches in his 8e army lists!

HAHAHAHA! BURN for Frankie!!

Count Adhemar wrote:

Hey! Wyches are in the top three most improved units in 40K! Frankie from FLG said so, so it must be true. And he put his money where his mouth is by using precisely zero Wyches in his 8e army lists!

Yeah, but that's kind of like Mandrakes in 6th - you can be one of the most improved units and still be bad if your starting point was low enough

TBH I feel like wyches are playable in this edition.
I'm not a competitive player at all, but 2 raiders filled each with 2x5 wyches with agoniser & blast pistol are pretty nice.

Wait turn 3 & add a succubus, and a doom farseer, and the amount of damage is far from ridiculous, especially with blast pistols shooting even if in melee.

Even bloodbrides with drugs +1A are cool ^^. Not espcially one shot-ing everything, but the face of your opponent when you annonce ~40 attacks hitting on 2+ (rerolls 1), reroll to wound is priceless :p

Pretty fun to play

I mean, yeah, you could do that. Or you could spend those points on Incubi and do the exact same thing, but better in every way. Or you could use Mandrakes. Or Harlequins.

It's not that you can't try and use them for something; it's that literally everything else does the same job better, and can survive doing it.

I like wyches, and used them in a small local tourny. They did their job, but if you want serious tourny list decision wyches aren’t there yet.

Their main advantage is against units without pistols, who want to be in close combat, and even then they are tar pits. In the tourny I placed 3rd by beating a tzeentch Deamon list. During hat game the wyches just held his prince up for a while saving my ravagers

To add some math into this, let's take a look at similarly buffed units of Wyches and Troupes.

On one side, we have a Troupe Master and a troupe of five, all armed with embraces.

On the other, we have a Succubus and ten wyches, armed with hydra gauntlets (well, two of them anyway). The Wyches will be taking the +1 Attack, and the Succubi will be taking the +1 WS.

Troupe Master:
GEQ: 5 Attacks - 4.17 Hits - 3.70 Wounds (Rerolled) - 3.70 Unsaved - 3.70 Dead Guardsmen.
MEQ: 5 Attacks - 4.17 Hits - 3.125 Wounds (Rerolled) - 2.60 Unsaved - 2.60 Dead Marines

Troupe:
GEQ: 20 Attacks - 13.33 Hits - 11.87 Wounds (Rerolled) - 11.87 Unsaved - 11.87 Dead Guardsmen.
MEQ: 20 Attacks - 13.33 Hits - 10.00 Wounds (Rerolled) - 8.33 Unsaved - 8.33 Dead Marines.

So for the Harlequins, we have a grand total of 15.57 Dead Guardsmen, and 10.93 dead Marines.

Succubus:
GEQ: 4 Attacks - 3.88 Hits (Rerolled) - 2.59 Wounds - 2.59 Unsaved - 2.59 Dead Guardsmen
MEQ: 4 Attacks - 3.88 Hits (Rerolled) - 2.59 Wounds - 2.16 Unsaved - 2.16 Dead Marines.

Wyches - Standard
GEQ: 26 Attacks - 20.28 Hits (Rerolled) - 10.14 Wounds - 6.76 Unsaved - 6.76 Dead Guardsmen.
MEQ: 26 Attacks - 20.28 Hits (Rerolled) - 6.76 Wounds - 2.25 Unsaved - 2.25 Dead Marines

Wyches- Hydra Gauntlets:
GEQ: 6 Attacks - 4.68 Hits (Rerolled) - 3.51 Wounds (Rerolled) - 2.93 Unsaved - 2.93 Dead Guardsmen.
MEQ: 6 Attacks- 4.68 Hits (Rerolled) - 3.74 Wounds (Rerolled) - 1.87 Unsaved - 1.87 Dead Marines.

This brings us to a grand total of 12.28 Dead Guardsmen and 6.28 Dead Marines.

This, I feel, answers the question. Harlies, at exactly equivalent points, hit harder, are more maneuverable, and possibly more survivable.

I know I didn't calculate pistols, namely because calculating Rending on my phone's calculator is an ungodly pain.

Voidhawk wrote:

Right now you've got me wondering if the other players in my casual meta will let me proxy my wyches as Harle's.

I would let you!


Everyone already said everything that is needed to say, but i wanted to say.... I love Harlequins Starweavers and the feel of them... they are so fun/good (not good in an OP way but you feel good playing them and your opponent doenst hate you) well... unless you do what i'm doing for fun and take 12 vehicles all with -1 to hit and a 4++ and watch as the game he only kills 1 thing a turn whahahahahahha

amishprn86 wrote:

Voidhawk wrote:

Right now you've got me wondering if the other players in my casual meta will let me proxy my wyches as Harle's.

I would let you!


Everyone already said everything that is needed to say, but i wanted to say.... I love Harlequins Starweavers and the feel of them... they are so fun/good (not good in an OP way but you feel good playing them and your opponent doenst hate you) well... unless you do what i'm doing for fun and take 12 vehicles all with -1 to hit and a 4++ and watch as the game he only kills 1 thing a turn whahahahahahha

Well we ARE Dark Eldar players, being evil and tormenting our opponent, is kinda our thing

lol... so true

Count Adhemar wrote:

Hey! Wyches are in the top three most improved units in 40K! Frankie from FLG said so, so it must be true. And he put his money where his mouth is by using precisely zero Wyches in his 8e army lists!

Golf clap. GW shills indeed.

I'm really curious what the new book will bring if their current state is still virtually unplayable.

Same here i do hope that the new Dark Eldar codex won´t continually leave us in the dirt and actually make our units a treat on the tabletop.