Dark Eldar - Melee Army possible

Hey guys,

i normaly play a standard mass shot army list. Like the most people plays it at the moment.

something like that:
cheap HQs
cabalites with lances
Venoms + Trueborns
ravager as heavy support
and a farseer vs psy power (hate this as DE Player - but its competetive)

I love the 3rd Edition models (dunno why so please do not blame me for this :p) and have allot of the old models:
20 whyches/ 15 grotestques/10 wracks/lilith/Drazahr/3 Thalos

I would love it to play a melee oriantated army but have no idea whether this is possible. I normaly play vs Tau/Primaris/Imperials/Tyranids. versus all this armies the mass shots are competetive (depending on luck with the dices). But Melee?

Has anyone experiences with melee oriantated DE - Armies in the 8th? I would be happy about some advices or ideas.

Thx in advance.
Greets Muma

It is not possible. Our melee units are really weak in general, especially our coven units. Our best options are, if I understand correctly, Incubi, Khymerae, and Clawed Fiends in that order. Nothing else will put a dent in your opponent's army, and it all dies to a stiff breeze.

I'm sorry. I own 20 wracks, 9 grots and 7 pain engines. I feel your pain.

Pffffff...thats not the answer i wanted to hear Disappointing! I can remenber the old times when melee was a good option for Dark Eldar.

A Shame for my models! But good to know so i will play them in "Fun" - Games with friends.

Does anyone know whether it will become viable again with our codex?

Chances are high grots and reavers will become viable at least in some way.
Chance is above average wracks and talos will become usuable.
Wyches, and hellions I have no idea, but I hope they also become usable, but I am uncertain.

Here I am not saying they are the best units or have the best special rules, but they probably will at least be comparable in price and effectiveness of similar units (problem is that a lot of the bigger creatures are not the best options right now and I doubt we will break that trend).

Quote :

Chances are high grots and reavers will become viable at least in some way.

Caution. Too much optimism may result in severe trauma and possible loss of hope.

Of course you can, and actually is the best way to play DE right now, where the meta is full of CC units or -1 to hit at shooting.
Not all of our units are good, but Sslyths and Clawed Fiends are our best choices for them.
Mind that we don't play ALL CC. We are the opposite of most of the other armies: our CC is amazing for rend over meq units, double damages for heavy infantry, and high Str for T3. It is complementary to our Lances (for big stuffs) and Poisons (for saturation on high T).
They still fast units on feet, cover the Beastmaster against snipers is not so difficult, and once you get in Melee you bring out a good punch. And, most of it, you add some target priorities to your opponet. A single Clawed fiend is 4 wounds at T5; pretty similar to a Venom in stats. They can draw some.antitank from your best shooty units.

We are trying more CC in the DE and we're enjoying it, now that the meta is changed.

I had 2 small games yesterday at 1250 using a cult list. I used:
9 mandrakes
Lelith
succubus
1x10 hekatrix bloodbrides in raider
1x8 hekatrix bloodbrides in raider (HQs go in here)
9 mandrakes
2x3 bikes
reaper

First game i played as the cult force then in the second game we swapped armies. the primaris force consisted of:

gravis captain
prim lieutenant
2x5 intercessors
inceptors
hellblasters
redemptor dreadnought
assault centurions

I got first turned and used line of sight blocking terrain and speed to close the distance on both flanks. my reaper dropped his redemptor in one go (I got lucky). I used mandrakes to start wearing down intercessors, buying more time for the raiders to get close. dark lances killed two centurions and by turn 3 my bloodbrides were in striking distance, getting out of raiders to assault the last centurion and a intercessor squad. the bikes sorted the inceptors out. the sheer amount of normal attacks with my blob of 9 (one died to overwatch) killed the last centurion. they had +1 leadership for their drug. the 8 strong unit never got to strike as lelith and the succubus killed the 5 man intercessor squad by themselves! the blood dancer trait is amazing on lelith. I gave her +1 str. my opponent conceded and we rest with me controlling the primaris.

A closer game this time but highlights are lelith rerolling hits and wounds against gravis captain in indomitus armour and warlord trait for +1 wound and 6+ fnp. and 6s to hit meant 3 hits rather then one. at one point she did 11 hits! The bloodbrides killed the centurions and hellblasters in combat, only losing bloodbrides to pistol shots in shooting phase. No escape prevented hellblasters form falling back.

I tihnk wyches are fantastic as bloodbrides just for the sheer amount of attacks. add the special weapons in and the 4+ invul in fight phase gives them alot of staying power. the Syren of one of the bloodbrides had a blast pistol and killed 5 primaris using just that pistol. totally worth the points.

Yes, Bloodbrides are pretty good! More than I thought. I'm discovering the ladies these days

Cerve wrote:

Yes, Bloodbrides are pretty good! More than I thought. I'm discovering the ladies these days

Bloodbrides are... really not that great. Sure, they can do some decent damage against a non-melee unit, but they're really not a cost effective way of doing damage. They're actually less cost effective than just bringing more Wyches, offensively speaking.


Here's the thing: I love Wyches and Blood Brides. I have done a full Wych Cult game of just Wyches, Bloodbrides, and a succubus (+ transports) and won. But that game was an outlier.

For their fragility and cost they need to be better.

But thankfully this is not a math game
I need that +1 attack on the special weapons, and between 3A agoniser and 4A there's an abyss.
5 Bloodbrides in a Venom brings enough punch where 5 Wyches don't. So they need a Raider, but in a Raider I can bring 2x5 Bloodbrides with 2x Agoniser.
And, most of all, with an Index I don't need so many CP. And for +20 points I prefer 5 Brides over 5 Wyches.
DE army is fully synergic army, where one unit needs to support the other one. Their CC is not resolutive, but helps a lot where the firepower cannot resolve the situation alone.
I like them, I'm getting results with them

I just played a tourney with 20 wyches, 10 incubi, 9 reavers, Archon, Succy, some transports, 2x5 scourges and 2x5 kabalites @ 1700pts. The melee army IMO suffers one big setback - you NEED to get beyond T3 (not really possible with limited time on tourney) AND you need to be clever with the rest of your forces.

I made few observations:
- IMO the melee army of DE is NOT made to wipe the enemy, but to win tactically.
- Generally you will want to go second so nothing can drop behind your drops and you have the final move.
- No, wyches are not bad. They are tactically great and offensively nasty enough.
- Brides losing Objsec is a big deal really for the same reason as above.
- Incubi are kinda tactically weak link because either you put them into webway, where they can miss the charge and dont do anything (whereas wyches can at least shoot pistols) or in transport, which makes them expensive and you need to protect them for several turns. OTOH, they do work as counterchargers, just dont be sorry to sacrifice them.
- Go big or go home.
- Generally, I think that if I were to change my list using even models I dont have, I'd do two big blobs from webway and as little tax as possible, so base Vanguard Detachment. Preferrably 2x20 wyches for objsec, Succy in Venom, 2x10 Mandrakes, 2x5 incubi in Venoms, thats roughly 1300. Add some boots on the ground, some AT and go rampage.

Cerve wrote:

But thankfully this is not a math game

What are you even talking about? Math, and specifically probability, is a huge part of the game. It's our main tool for predicting the outcome of just about any action in the game, except for basic movement. And as you know, being able to predict these outcomes is one of the most, if not the most, important skills in this and many other games.

Cerve wrote:

5 Bloodbrides in a Venom brings enough punch where 5 Wyches don't.

This doesn't matter. It's obvious that five wyches+1 are more powerful than five wyches, but we aren't talking about how powerful the individual models are. We are discussing how effective the units are for the points invested, and on that front bloodbrides are pretty bad. Although I'm not sure how effective bloodbrides are compared to wyches, I do know that both are fairly subpar, and knowing that one subpar thing is less subpar than another subpar thing doesn't help us either right now. We are looking for our most effective unit compared to other effective units, and we know that bloodbrides and wyches aren't among them.

Cerve wrote:

And, most of all, with an Index I don't need so many CP.

This is not a benefit. This is just us lacking options. That's like saying that you don't own too many models, so you don't need as many points as your opponent.

Cerve wrote:

DE army is fully synergic army, where one unit needs to support the other one. Their CC is not resolutive, but helps a lot where the firepower cannot resolve the situation alone.

This is not by design, and not a good thing. Although we are meant to have the speed to outnumber the opponent locally, this is not why we are a "fully synergic army". We have this situation because our units are weak and can't do their jobs properly, and thus need support.. The units of other armies can do the same thing as several of ours for about the same price

Pain Engine wrote:

Cerve wrote:

But thankfully this is not a math game

What are you even talking about? Math, and specifically probability, is a huge part of the game. It's our main tool for predicting the outcome of just about any action in the game, except for basic movement. And as you know, being able to predict these outcomes is one of the most, if not the most, important skills in this and many other games.

Cerve wrote:

5 Bloodbrides in a Venom brings enough punch where 5 Wyches don't.

This doesn't matter. It's obvious that five wyches+1 are more powerful than five wyches, but we aren't talking about how powerful the individual models are. We are discussing how effective the units are for the points invested, and on that front bloodbrides are pretty bad. Although I'm not sure how effective bloodbrides are compared to wyches, I do know that both are fairly subpar, and knowing that one subpar thing is less subpar than another subpar thing doesn't help us either right now. We are looking for our most effective unit compared to other effective units, and we know that bloodbrides and wyches aren't among them.

Cerve wrote:

And, most of all, with an Index I don't need so many CP.

This is not a benefit. This is just us lacking options. That's like saying that you don't own too many models, so you don't need as many points as your opponent.

Cerve wrote:

DE army is fully synergic army, where one unit needs to support the other one. Their CC is not resolutive, but helps a lot where the firepower cannot resolve the situation alone.

This is not by design, and not a good thing. Although we are meant to have the speed to outnumber the opponent locally, this is not why we are a "fully synergic army". We have this situation because our units are weak and can't do their jobs properly, and thus need support.. The units of other armies can do the same thing as several of ours for about the same price

I so disagree with like everything you said here, Pain Engine, unless your games are just about who kills most stuff. Which is problem of the games, not the army. We had a classic example yesterday at a tourney. A guy with a list very closely resembling the Dark Reapers' LVO winner list won like once and did not score anything high on a semi-comp level tourney. It was certainly not about the player, since he might be obnoxious, but is not a bad player, but the missions were about objectives and not the killing. And the results are not Win-Loss, but points progression. Our units are quite good at what is needed to win in such environment.

And just to give a specific example - DRs are not awfully strong by themselves... they are strong because of the support they can get, but you seem to suggest that such an unit is weak and cant do its job properly...

Quote :

But thankfully this is not a math game

Considering the only thing you do in the game is measure distances and roll dices... i'd say it's very much a math game.

@aurynn

IMO, your observations were true in previous editions, were DE were actually the fastest army around. Now we are middle-tier in terms of speed, so I wouldn't say we are supposed to win by objective grabbing.
My observations are that if your Dark Eldars haven't crippled the enemy extremely badly by turn 2 (by spamming abusive amounts of Dark Lances), you have lost your game. 8th edition is win big, or lose big. I have yet to see a tight game were you can't tell the winner by turn 3. Considering this, going second is the last thing to do in 8th edition, because everything is about alpha striking...


The only scenario were our CC is needed to accomplish something that can't be done with shooting is the use of Khymeras to kill T3 opponents. That's because our anti-GEQ shooting (shredder) is abysmal, and we need to compensate with some other option. But if you exclude our huge weakness against T3, there is no real need for CC in a DE army. All our CC is sub-optimal, and better results can be achieved by spamming the same 2 units (RWJF, ravagers).

That's why we need a codex badly. We need to have reasons to field anything beyond darklight.

Mppqlmd wrote:

Quote :

But thankfully this is not a math game

Considering the only thing you do in the game is measure distances and roll dices... i'd say it's very much a math game.

@aurynn

IMO, your observations were true in previous editions, were DE were actually the fastest army around. Now we are middle-tier in terms of speed, so I wouldn't say we are supposed to win by objective grabbing.
My observations are that if your Dark Eldars haven't crippled the enemy extremely badly by turn 2 (by spamming abusive amounts of Dark Lances), you have lost your game. 8th edition is win big, or lose big. I have yet to see a tight game were you can't tell the winner by turn 3. Considering this, going second is the last thing to do in 8th edition, because everything is about alpha striking...

The only scenario were our CC is needed to accomplish something that can't be done with shooting is the use of Khymeras to kill T3 opponents. That's because our anti-GEQ shooting (shredder) is abysmal, and we need to compensate with some other option. But if you exclude our huge weakness against T3, there is no real need for CC in a DE army. All our CC is sub-optimal, and better results can be achieved by spamming the same 2 units (RWJF, ravagers).

That's why we need a codex badly. We need to have reasons to field anything beyond darklight.

Not sure what is different in our environments, but I assure you I am speaking about 8th. In all my games in 8th (like 5 tourneys plus pickup games) I have willingly chose to go first maybe one time. I do not play against the absolute top of the meta, but I do meet Aura lists, 3x3 oblits lists, Poxwalker spam lists, Mortarion, etc. And I think it was only against Mortarion I wanted to go first.

In addition I dont care much how fast other armies can get compared to us, but what they actually play and what I can do with mine. And yes, I do win on objective grabbing most of the time. I grant you I do not occupy top of the leaderboards, but well I am stubbornly loyal to DE and I tend to bring fun lists. 10 lances and 10 blasters (but I had 14 blasters including pistols and one lance yesterday and had fun) is what I require to have in most lists. I am sure I could come up with a list that would do surprisingly well even without codex.

Mmm....math is just a tool, not the game. Maneuvers, skill, unit compositions, managing of target priorities are all above the simple math. In that case, Bloodbrides are better than Wyches, because you need that output of damages in 5 models. And I disagree: we hardly need CC right now. I saw a DeathCompany crush over 10 Sslyths and die in (being characters is pretty good, the Archon's reroll even better).
With just the shoot, we can't win.
We lack in anti heavy infantry
We lack in anti light infantry
Our poisons is not enough. Any Ts2+ (3+ in cover) is a pain in the ass.
Dissies are fine, but not spammable (and the carriers are the same for the Lances).
Blasters are pretty weak with their D3 dmg.
We're good to shred big guys, but that's all.

Plus, we have no rerolls on shooting, and there's a lot of -1 to hit in shooting in this meta.

Our CC is great for their role. We don't need CC for big guys, we have the shoot for that. We need some S5 spam, some fast attacks, some tarpit units, and we have all of them. We don't need any Primarch, Abaddon o DeathCompany unit. Seriously, try it! Let's marry shoot and CC together, don't look for the uberstrong CC unit that works alone, we don't have it.




And of course we need a Codex. We still an Index, and Eldar are way more easy to use (seriously, they nearly play alone..), but we still one of the best index in the game.

Math is not the "1+1 = 2" you learn in school. Math is not a reductive name : rocket science is math, programmation algorithm is math, so i'm pretty sure moving little miniatures around and rolling dice can be called math.

Quote :

Our CC is great for their role.

No. You may explain how they are somewhat functional (even though i'd disagree), but saying that they are great is really ridiculous. We have ZERO melee unit that doesn't suffer from the "I wish I was playing another army" syndrom. For every one of our CC units, you can find another unit from another army that either A, has the same profile for less points, or B, costs the same points but has a tremedously better profile.

The only 3 units that stand their ground in points to points comparison are Ravagers, RWJF and kabalites (even though they are not the best option in the entire game, they are fairly competitive). Everything else is absurdly overpriced and uneffective.


Compare wyches with orkz boyz. Please do.
Compare Bloodbrides with genestealers.
Compare Reavers with Shining Spears.

I've had a really good time in 8th edition running various combinations of Incubi, Bloodbrides, and Clawed Fiends, supported by Kabalites in Venoms and Ravagers.

That's why I restrain from saying they are unplayable. You can play them, have fun with it, and even win games. But anyone bringing Bloodbrides to a serious competition he has any intention to win is either 1, not that bright or 2, such a tactical genius that he feels he has to pick the least desirable units in the Index to compensate for his superior intelligence.

Unfortunatly, the same comment could be applied to Dark Eldars in general...

While I agree that most of our options are less then optiomal calling them the least desirable units is also quite an exxageration.
Yes most of our melee units cannot compair to those in codexes and quite a few of our units are less than the better units in the indexes.
On the other hand I also played incubi and I think they are defenetly not as bad as you now make them sound. The same goes for most of our beasts and while many people would disagree even our wracks.
Although yes if you bring them to a serious tournament you do disadvantage yourself since there definitly are better options availible.

@Mppqlmd
Well I just love how anything below ETC and ITC is considered "less serious". :-D We will have a GT tournament in a few weeks with international attendance. Noobs, casuals, fluffers, and of course even WAACs... Not serious enough? :-D I am telling you that with melee DE list you wouldn't end last. I am pretty sure that it'd be even top half...

aurynn wrote:

@Mppqlmd
Well I just love how anything below ETC and ITC is considered "less serious". :-D We will have a GT tournament in a few weeks with international attendance. Noobs, casuals, fluffers, and of course even WAACs... Not serious enough? :-D I am telling you that with melee DE list you wouldn't end last. I am pretty sure that it'd be even top half...

As someone who has played a full Wych cult vs a Korne army, this is true... if your opponent makes severe tactical mistakes and flubs every roll.

You know what the hard counter to Wyches is?
Having a flamer.

One flamer can overwatch that venom-load of bloodbrides into toast with even a modicum of good luck (or bad luck).

You know what else will kill Wyches?
Pistols. Like the ones carried by literally every Space Marine.

You know what Wyches struggle to deal with? T4, 3+ armour.

You know you suck when you're an anti-infantry unit that can't deal with the most popular infantry in the game, and gets destroyed by 2 of the most common weapons in the game.

Mppqlmd wrote:

Math is not the "1+1 = 2" you learn in school. Math is not a reductive name : rocket science is math, programmation algorithm is math, so i'm pretty sure moving little miniatures around and rolling dice can be called math.

Quote :

Our CC is great for their role.

No. You may explain how they are somewhat functional (even though i'd disagree), but saying that they are great is really ridiculous. We have ZERO melee unit that doesn't suffer from the "I wish I was playing another army" syndrom. For every one of our CC units, you can find another unit from another army that either A, has the same profile for less points, or B, costs the same points but has a tremedously better profile.

The only 3 units that stand their ground in points to points comparison are Ravagers, RWJF and kabalites (even though they are not the best option in the entire game, they are fairly competitive). Everything else is absurdly overpriced and uneffective.


Compare wyches with orkz boyz. Please do.
Compare Bloodbrides with genestealers.
Compare Reavers with Shining Spears.

Honestly, this argue is totally nonsense. Other armies have a playstyle completely different from the ours. You litterally can't do these comparison...
Can you immagine a Genestealer in our army? Genos are so cheap because you NEED to boost them with a lot of other units in the TYR Codex. Their cost is balanced with the synergies of their Codex.
Orks is the same.
Compare Reavers with Shining Spear is useless too, because Reavers is one of the few overcosted units in our Codex.

But the large amout of our melee units works pretty well between the choices and synergies of our Index. We just need stratagems (and a little fix in HQ and few units like Reavers), and we will fine.


Seems to me that you're completely understimate how a single race works. You litterally can't comparyze units between armies, they have their inside balacement (can you immagine a Genestealer unit with the transport of a DE? Or the chance to take Orks Boys with our firepower?! That should be completely broken!)


Armies have their balance. Yep of course there are single case of mistakes (....dark reapers...), but any army has his balace between movement, firepower, melepower, psychic power, bodycount etc. You can't just say "hey, Orks Boys are better than Wyches", it's just misunderstanding.
And seems to me that you're considering units that works alone (like Shining Spears). DE never had a unit like that.....maybe the 20 Hellions mob in 5th edition, but that's all. Our army play a synergic style, like Tyranids and others. We are not Chaos or Eldar, that runs stand-alone units, we work as a choir.

If a player want to play single power units, let's go to Eldar, Chaos or Custodes. We will never been them. And that's why here, we are finding our CC pretty solid for the style of the army. It's precisely what we need for.


PS: Sslyths+Archon probably are the best melee "unit" in the index.

I can indeed imagine Genestealers in our army and they're considerably better than any of our native units even without synergy from other Tyranid units.