Splinter Cannons

Halving the points cost on Splinter Cannons sounds great. I am not convinced it was enough however.

On Venoms and Razorwings it's 10 pts to go from Rapid Fire 2 24" to Rapid Fire 3 36". I am never going to take that upgrade.

In a Warrior squad, 10 pts gets you +2 rapid fire. That's better of course, but the opportunity cost is almost 2 more warriors or whatever else you can find for 10pts. I really don't think that's enough firepower to justify it. I guess squeezing those extra shots into a Raider can be good. I just feel like we're overpaying for that on necessity.

In a Scourge squad... Maybe? Since a Scourge costs 2pts more than a cannon you do get those 3 more shots in rapid fire for cheaper. Though -1 model/wound. But how would that stack up to the other weapons options?

I never take them on Razorwings. Because of how you have to move them, you often drop down within rapid fire range for the twin-linked rifle anyway, and can't be charged.
I do take them on venoms. The way I see it, it's 4 additional shots at 18" range. I try to keep that 18" distance to avoid getting charged. Inside 12" from a target, your easy to reach and have no invul defense in combat. A unit with a 5" move only needs to roll a 6" charge at rapid fire range for rifles compared to double 6's if your rapid firing with cannons.

The range bonus would be nice, except I can't think of how to utilize it with passengers. They will either want to be somewhat close to drop off and assault, or be in splinter rifle rapid fire range. So that extra 4 shots within that 6" space won't do me 10 pts of good still.

I would rather not comment, what with deciding to leave the hobby and all, but I figured I might as well chip in here.

Best place for them is on a Talos. You're not replacing an existing free gun there, so it's a fun bunch of dakka.

Does anyone know the points cost of a Hurricane Bolter off hand? as a point of comparison?

10 pts

*edit*

I forgot about the errata

Yep, I'm really not sure I can.

The only times they are good are when other options aren't open to you, like you have a full squad on a raider and you want more splinter fire. Or you have a full 20 man squad in the webway and you want that extra kick.

But in each of these circumstances it really is a case of a tiny extra bit of firepower for points that could very well be better spent on something else if possible. And while it would divert some of the purpose of the squad to have some dark light in it, I peresonally would take that option over the splinter cannon, as the additional points are negligible for the utility.

The added range is a good point, and an interesting one to make, It does however have to be said that we now have the obsidian rose, which might give that flexibility without the additional investment. (admittedly, to only 15")

I really want to like them, especially on Venoms, but it's hard to justify the cost. The splinter rifle on the Venom got doubled, whilst the Cannon now only gets half the shots at 36". Yet we still pay the same for the upgrade as we did in 7th.

I was going to say that it might be worth it on a Raider with Splinter Racks . . . except Splinter Racks don't actually work with it. Gee, I sure am glad it got turned into a rapid-fire weapon.

I think the only time I'd consider it is if I had a venom with an Blaster-Archon and some Sslyth (i.e. all the passengers have range 18" weapons). Though even then I'd probably only do it if I had 10pts spare, since an Archon with several Sslyth will almost certainly need to join combat ASAP so as to be a worthwhile investment.

FuelDrop wrote:

I would rather not comment, what with deciding to leave the hobby and all, but I figured I might as well chip in here.

Best place for them is on a Talos. You're not replacing an existing free gun there, so it's a fun bunch of dakka.

I think that's a good point. Certainly far better value than spending the same points to replace a TL splinter rifle on a Venom.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

I think the only time I'd consider it is if I had a venom with an Blaster-Archon and some Sslyth (i.e. all the passengers have range 18" weapons). Though even then I'd probably only do it if I had 10pts spare, since an Archon with several Sslyth will almost certainly need to join combat ASAP so as to be a worthwhile investment.

See, that's one of the reasons Blasterborn in a dual cannon Venom were such a popular unit: internal synergy.

I will probably keep using the splinter cannons on my venoms since I just like the extra splinter shots and it comes in real handy with the flayed skull obsession. Yeah I could probably drop all my splinter cannons and get something better, but I'm ok with keeping them. I will also trying using one cannon in 10 man warrior unit in a raider, yeah the cannon is the cost of almost 2 warriors but since the raider will be at max capacity it's increasing the unit's firepower while letting them stay in the transport.

IMO the splinter cannon assists the venoms strengths. They keep it at range, and force an opponent to dedicate firepower to removing the venom, and that's what we want. -1 to hit and a 5+ invul vs shooting make them far more survivable at range than locked in combat. See my charge range post near the top of this thread.

If you want to get within 12" for kabalites rapid firing, for me you'd need to opt for a raider with some extra bodies on board and a couple of shredders to make the damage outoput worth the risk, or be disembarking, moving up, shooting and then charging. Otherwise you get very little in terms of extra output for a big increase in risk to the vehicle from being inside CC range. An extra 4 kabalite shots (I'm assuming kabalite 5 has a blaster) aren't worth sacrificing the venom for.

Edit - the biggest drawback to them is nothing to do with the splinter cannon, it's that they replace twin-linked rifles in most cases. A decent enough weapon that's free. So SCs esseantially cost a TLSR and 10 points to fit.

They are only okay. Use them on Venons and anti-infantry squads. They don’t even work with Splinter Racks.

I don't take them and put blast pistols on sybarites instead.

They're basically in the same place as before, but better, so I'll make basically the same argument.

Sure, it's not the most efficient shooting in the game or in the book, but the reality is you need the volume of fire. It's a no-brainer upgrade on Venoms or in a 10 man squad of Kabs in a Raider IMO.

The argument is always "the points can be better spent elsewhere". Where? That upgrade on a Venom that is already a good unit is an easy choice. And in most cases your ideal range is 18" due to Blasters anyway.

Would I blame you for dropping it from a Razorwing though? Nah.
Would I blame you for not putting them on Scourge? Nah.
Would I call you an idiot for not putting them on your 5 or 6 Flayed Skull Venoms? You bet your ass I would.

Chippen wrote:

Would I call you an idiot for not putting them on your 5 or 6 Flayed Skull Venoms? You bet your ass I would.

but by that point you can get another venom!

Taking them in 10 man warrior units can be worthwhile I think. Going from 1 splinter rifle to 3 is much bigger than twin to 3 for the same points.

Quote :

but by that point you can get another venom!

Eh, you'd be pushing seven Venoms by the time you have enough to buy an eighth. That's 520 points just for the transports themselves, 760 to put Kabs inside, and 1056 for some Agonizer Archons to fill two Battalions.

Huh.

You see, my point was going to be that by the time you're reaching Cannon Counts to just bring another boat, you'd be far outside the scope of a 2000 point game, but there's plenty of resources left, apparently.

Crap, I need more Venoms to run that

Seriously, why dont they work with splinter racks, that seems like an obvious oversight.

I like cannons because it makes math easier for the unit. Even with two special weapons you can calculate damage in your head as a 10-rifle squad.

I think cannons on venoms are auto-included and a fine choice for Talos, but unnecessary beyond that.

I know it isn't amazing point-for-point, but there is an unquantified value in having all guns operate at the same range bands. The 36"/24"/18"/12" split of the un-upgraded venom is confused and tactically inefficient.


The talos has to pay for its weapons regardless, so quantity is always an option.

If you spam venoms, I dont think they are worth it. You are better off with more warriors/venoms. Maybe if you only have 1 or 2?

I don't get the splinter cannon hate.

For a warrior, you pay 16 points total for a model with a Rapid Fire 3 weapon, or you could pay 18 points total for 3 warriors with Rapid Fire 1. Same number of shots, fewer points, longer range (granted, fewer wounds and fewer melee attacks).

THere are other opportunity costs for warriors (eg taking a dark lance, needing 10 dudes) that may preclude taking the cannon. Fair enough. But for more dakka it's a solidly costed upgrade.

For a venom, there is no range at which a base venom has more shots per point than a venom with 2 splinter cannons.

At under 12", the base model has 10 shots for 65 points (6.5 points per shot), the double cannon has 12 shots for 75 points (6.25 points per shot). That is the most favourable comparison for the base. At 18" the base drops to 8 shots (8.125 points per shot), while the dual cannon is unchanged.  At the worst case for the base, you pay 21.667 points per shot at 25-36, compared to 12.5 points per shot for the dual cannon venom.

So while in optimal conditions the base venom is only slightly worse, in non-optimal conditions you can be paying almost twice as many points per shot. Why would you not upgrade the second splinter cannon?

Problem is with the warriors analogy is if you're taking 3 warriors over 1 with a splinter cannon, it's same shots but more wounds. The extra range isn't a big deal because the optimal range for the rest of the squad is still 12", so you're probably not gaining a whole lot. That being said, taking 2 more warrior bodies often isn't an option since your warriors are chilling in a raider, so I am definetly going to give splinter cannons a shot because I don't see why I wouldn't boost their splinter weapon fire. As you said you give up the dark lance, but I think I'm ok with that. Worth experimenting with.

Good comparison for the venom. Still, I can see why people would rather not take a splinter cannon on a venom, 65pts for a transport is pretty cheap and if you're taking 4-5 venoms, that's almost another venom. That being said, as I'm running pure flayed skull for now I think I'll stick with my dual splinter cannon venoms, having the extra shots at longer range pretty much always comes in handy and they are further boosted by the rerolls and ignoring cover.

I suppose it depends what you want from your venoms - if you want more hulls, or more transport capacity, then sure, leave off the second cannon. Personally I like the dakka, but different strokes.

Yeah that's pretty much how I see it, I want the dakka so I'll stick with cannons for the time being.

I want my Kabalite Warriors in Raiders to kill infantry (and harass monsters), so I give them Splinter Cannons when I can fit them in a list. I frequently skirt the enemy at 18" range until I whittle them down enough to close in for the 12" full-rapid fire kill.

I think 2 Splinter Cannons on Venom are also worth it. You can stay at that quite safe 18" range all the time and maintain full firepower. No weird rapid fire brackets and no closing in to the enemy's charge range either.

I find SC on 10 man kab squads to be an efficient upgrade with the last 10-50 odd pts based on unsaved wounds per point. I don't find them attractive on any other platform (scourge, venom, razorwing)

My preferred last upgrades:
-Splinter cannon upgrade on 10man kab is one of the most efficient available for wounds/pt
-PGL for the leadership debuff and grenade stratagems

Other observations:
-I was surprised that Medusae damage didn't calculate out higher. I guess they have 3 wounds so thats something.
-Shredders are a really good deal for anti infantry.
-Splinter racks are a poor upgrade.


Here are my calculations of the value of upgrades at the wounds per point stage:


SC on kab (18") .167
SC on kab (12") .155
SC on kab (24") .067
additional kab (12") .133
S rack with 7 rifles .078
S rack with 10 rifes .111
SC on Venom (18") .133
SC on Venom (12") .066
DL on 10man kab .057 (at -4AP)(moving wounding 2+)

Other options considered:
PGL .074 (plus leadership debuff)
Shredder .149 (at AP-1) (assuming str4 infantry)
Shredder .164 (at AP-1) (assuming str3 infantry)
additional Medusae .06 (at AP-2)
Blaster .085 (at AP-4)