Black Heart Spearhead

I agree that grots and dissies need to cost more points, maaaybe even kabalites, and the ravager itself, though I'm not so sure about these. But AoV, haywire and the others are okay as they are.
Both haywire and AoV are kinda situational, if you add more cost to them, they just won't be worth it. Though I could see AoV becoming 1 use only, but it doesn't really need it.

Just enjoy it while it lasts! GWs usual response to a nut-sized problem is a sledgehammer-sized response. Grots will go to 50 ppm and Dissies will be 40 points each.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Just enjoy it while it lasts! GWs usual response to a nut-sized problem is a sledgehammer-sized response. Grots will go to 50 ppm and Dissies will be 40 points each.

Exactly this. Saying that our units are too cheap and we're tired of winning is like walking in a Haemonculus' shop for some mod work. When he asks "So what do you want done today?", you reply "Just eff my crap up, bro!" and the Haemonculus is grinning like a maniac, calling out to one of his wracks and telling him to cancel all his appointments for the next couple of centuries. That's how nutty GW are about nerfing things.

Well...it's a game. Put my units on the table, go foward until I'll say "I win" it's not entertaining.

Honestly, I getting bored for my preferred army and that sucks. I was playing DE on index with good results, so I'm not afraid about some nerfs. Just some increased points overall and it will be fine.

The elephant in the room is, and I've said it before, most of our opponents suck at the game from a tactical perspective. People playing 40k armies that are good rarely have to worry about finding the moving parts or learning what opponents units do outside of a competitive setting, they just win. We went from garbage where we *had* to be good to win to being one of the competitive armies, so naturally our better-than-average players are going to stomp all over players of other armies who know nothing about Dark Eldar for a while. After a month or two they'll acclimate trust me.

TeenageAngst wrote:

The elephant in the room is, and I've said it before, most of our opponents suck at the game from a tactical perspective. People playing 40k armies that are good rarely have to worry about finding the moving parts or learning what opponents units do outside of a competitive setting, they just win. We went from garbage where we *had* to be good to win to being one of the competitive armies, so naturally our better-than-average players are going to stomp all over players of other armies who know nothing about Dark Eldar for a while. After a month or two they'll acclimate trust me.

This. But it won't happens. We'll be nerfed before this.

Only if our local playtesters tell GW that we're too strong. So yeah we'll probably be nerfed.

TeenageAngst wrote:

The elephant in the room is, and I've said it before, most of our opponents suck at the game from a tactical perspective. People playing 40k armies that are good rarely have to worry about finding the moving parts or learning what opponents units do outside of a competitive setting, they just win. We went from garbage where we *had* to be good to win to being one of the competitive armies, so naturally our better-than-average players are going to stomp all over players of other armies who know nothing about Dark Eldar for a while. After a month or two they'll acclimate trust me.

I agree with this, honestly. It is true.

The problem is when these DE players try something else, winning with them, and still recognize DE are better.

Right now, there's  no power armour that can compete with us. And that's a problem for the game itself

Cerve wrote:

TeenageAngst wrote:

The elephant in the room is, and I've said it before, most of our opponents suck at the game from a tactical perspective. People playing 40k armies that are good rarely have to worry about finding the moving parts or learning what opponents units do outside of a competitive setting, they just win. We went from garbage where we *had* to be good to win to being one of the competitive armies, so naturally our better-than-average players are going to stomp all over players of other armies who know nothing about Dark Eldar for a while. After a month or two they'll acclimate trust me.

I agree with this, honestly. It is true.

The problem is when these DE players try something else, winning with them, and still recognize DE are better.

Right now, there's  no power armour that can compete with us. And that's a problem for the game itself

Just b.c we are strong against 1 type of army doesnt make us op, We are insanely weak to Daemons, Orks, Tyranids, some IG lists, some DG lists, CWE, etc...

We are strong against Elite armies, and MEQ, funny, atm players are playing elite 1 gimmick armies atm, or they are just playing lots of Marines b.c "everything else sucks"... no, SM CAN TABLE US.

WW's, Stalkers, insane amounts of plasma, autocannons, HB's, etc.. My SoB list will beat almost any DE list, i dont even need CP's, with 31 SB's, 15 HB's, 25 Seraphims with 5++ rerolling, and 12 Inferno pistols with everything getting re-roll's of 1, and up to 5 AoF, with over 100 3+/6++ models on the table and finally Celestine doing 14 S7 -3 D3 attacks a turn, Its not even far, i play tested them for adepticon for 2 months and never lost with them vs comp lists (like BA, CWE, etc..) I have no idea why no SoB player is taking horde sisters, 400+ shots turn 1 is insane, 120 HB shots, if i go 1st will have 15/15 SB/Bolter in rapid range, another 18 in normal range and all HB's in ranger, thats enough to take out 3 Ravagers and a Raider turn 1 and the kabals with 60 left over bolters, seraphim, celestine, etc..

Im not trying to brag, just saying there are plenty of things that will beat us, the problem is the meta isnt playing those armies/units, a friend is starting to take 2-3 Stalkers vs me, and they do 3-4 wounds a turn each, but being 48" he out ranged me, sure its 3-4, but with 3 of them thats 9-12 wounds a turn vs Ravagers/Raiders, etc.. if i do go for them turn 1 then i wont have ravagers by turn 2, b.c he also have loads of plasma.

I just hope we dont get nerf b.c players cry wolf where are are lots of answers and they just dont want to play with those models.

PS: I couldnt go to adepticon, i even bought the tickets/Hotel, an something F'ed up happen the day before, what a waste.... im so sad and mad i couldnt go, i still stay up at night sometimes angry that i couldnt go, its just a short 4-5 hour drive for me too.

amishprn86 wrote:

Cerve wrote:

TeenageAngst wrote:

The elephant in the room is, and I've said it before, most of our opponents suck at the game from a tactical perspective. People playing 40k armies that are good rarely have to worry about finding the moving parts or learning what opponents units do outside of a competitive setting, they just win. We went from garbage where we *had* to be good to win to being one of the competitive armies, so naturally our better-than-average players are going to stomp all over players of other armies who know nothing about Dark Eldar for a while. After a month or two they'll acclimate trust me.

I agree with this, honestly. It is true.

The problem is when these DE players try something else, winning with them, and still recognize DE are better.

Right now, there's  no power armour that can compete with us. And that's a problem for the game itself

Just b.c we are strong against 1 type of army doesnt make us op, We are insanely weak to Daemons, Orks, Tyranids, some IG lists, some DG lists, CWE, etc...

We are what?

Tyr, DG, Daemons are all pretty good match up for us. And I think that even IG has to tremble against what we can field.

The only thing that I can fear against is the Serpent Spam. Against saturation fire I'm pretty fine.

For example, I played two days ago:

RedGrief Battalion
2xSuccubus
3x5 Wyches w/shardnet
7 Reavers

Black Heart Spearhead
Archon
3xDissy Ravagers
3xVenoms

Prophets Vanguard
2xHaemonculus
3-3-4 Grotesques
3xTalos w/Haywire
2x5 Scourges w/Haywire

Against a RavenGuard who went first, with 8 Aggressors fullbolter and 6 melee Cenutions with double flamers and bolters, all infiltrated with the stratagem. Anyone knows how much fire has with only those three units.

I won at the third, simply going straight foward.

They can't stop all that meat, and you can't focus those Venoms when you have all these stuffs to consider. So the meat is come...and the nets too...

In another game: against Tau old style full of Broadsides, Firewarriors, Drones, a LOT of firepower.
I won in the same way.

We're far to being fragile anymore! Honestly, our general toughness (between meat and veichles) is ludicrous! The guy from Tabletop Tactics once on WhTV played a list with 8 Talos, 3 Razorwing and 6 Venoms...at 2000 points? We are FREAKING hard to kill right now!

The only match that I will be curious to play is against a Wave Spam, just because is faster than me and pretty hard to kill it too. But I don't care about Aggressors. DarkReapers etc anymore...not with this costs, not with this Codex. We can just deploy too many units.



PS: Horde sisters lose in missions, because it a terrible slow list with a mediocre range. You can't direct the game, a good list will kill the sisters piece by piece, taking his time.

Cerve wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Cerve wrote:

TeenageAngst wrote:

The elephant in the room is, and I've said it before, most of our opponents suck at the game from a tactical perspective. People playing 40k armies that are good rarely have to worry about finding the moving parts or learning what opponents units do outside of a competitive setting, they just win. We went from garbage where we *had* to be good to win to being one of the competitive armies, so naturally our better-than-average players are going to stomp all over players of other armies who know nothing about Dark Eldar for a while. After a month or two they'll acclimate trust me.

I agree with this, honestly. It is true.

The problem is when these DE players try something else, winning with them, and still recognize DE are better.

Right now, there's  no power armour that can compete with us. And that's a problem for the game itself

Just b.c we are strong against 1 type of army doesnt make us op, We are insanely weak to Daemons, Orks, Tyranids, some IG lists, some DG lists, CWE, etc...

We are what?

Tyr, DG, Daemons are all pretty good match up for us.

Yes we are, DP's are characters with 8 wounds hiding behind 80+ 4/5++ models, Tyranids just a unit of Hiveguard can Double shoot 36" out of LoS re-roll 1's for 24 S8 -2 D3 shots each turn. Both other those are insane. DG with the Drones and cheap AF tanks with their melee doing MW's.

The Hive Guard alone will kill 2 Raiders or Ravagers a turn unless they are Black Heart, they T5 3 Wounds so you need 2 Dis Cannon wounds to kill 1.

DP's can still take 6 even with Rule of 3 (there are 3 heavy and 3 HQ) so thats still a thing, and they are godly vs us b.c they we dont really have ways to deal with the hordes if you take the normal 3 Ravagers, 10 Grots, 6 troops list "Before" the DP's gets into melee.

DG Drones and those Crawlers (tho they are not as big of a deal now that it is Rule of 3), but the Plague Crawling is cheap AF and T8 with 12 wounds 5+ Invul and FnP for the cost of a Ravager, it has a 4 shot HB, D6 Missile and 2 S8 Lascannons, sure its BS 4+, but it will take many turns to kill them and be firing everything at all you the time, the Drones will be on you turn 1 again with 5+ Invul and FnP T7 10wounds. And finally most of their weapons are re-roll wounds of 1 with te ability to get re-rolls hits of 1. 60 Poxwalkers still in most players lists ignore moral, 5++/5+++ again like everything in that book, But DG has won some major tournaments too, with 10 Crawlers and 60 Poxwalkers tho lol.

Finally Orks, we cant beat them if they just bring 300 Orks, it was shown dependent on missions Orks will win if there are no ITC/ETC tailored missions towards Hordes (they do a thing where you get 1 VP for every 10man unit you kill, 20man gets you 2 VP, etc.. so if you cant do 9/19 man units you will be hurting).

I mean you "Didnt" see these lists at Tournaments b.c of IG, Nids, and CWE, CWE and Flrant Spam was way to strong, now they are balanced and also no more mass spam of DSing Alpha shooting units, like 6 units of Oblits, or 6 units of Inceptors.


IMO We are very strong in casual games and in the top 3 for Tournaments, but not the best in Tournaments, it is HEAVILY dependent on Missions.


Add:

Cerve wrote:

"PS: Horde sisters lose in missions, because it a terrible slow list with a mediocre range. You can't direct the game, a good list will kill the sisters piece by piece, taking his time."

NO it depends on the missions, there are 18 missions in the GW book, if you are playing ITC then thats a tailored mission set, the same as other tournament missions, i have not lost one game with SoB in 8th yet and i have gone against netlist from top wining lists vs good players that do tournaments as well.

CWE killed that list before the nerf sure with 70 S5 shots from 48" each turn, but still with the right mission they can win easily. My CWE player didnt play Reaper spam with Ynnari, its the only list i couldnt practice against, but i wasnt worried to much b.c Flyrant spam was a thing and fear of nerf for the tournament so there wasnt really a lot of DR spam (still had them just not 18+ of them 1 unit of 7 and 2 units of 3, much more manageable)

Have you even played a 100man+ sob list or played against it? B.c i have many games with all the GW's missions.

PS They are not slow, 30 girls moving 8" (Pre 3 unit faq it was 90 doing a vanguard scout move, now i can only do 30) before game starts and 30 more with 14" movement, the rest are 24-36" shooting, a basic move and they are fine, 3 of the units wont move all game. If you think 14-16" is slow for 60 models on turn 1 where its the most important movement turn, then i guess it is slow.

Cerve wrote:

Against a RavenGuard who went first, with 8 Aggressors fullbolter and 6 melee Cenutions with double flamers and bolters, all infiltrated with the stratagem. Anyone knows how much fire has with only those three units.

I won at the third, simply going straight foward.

You added this after i saw your post, so i will comment on this separately.

That list you played against is 100% TRASH, wtf? that list is 100% grabage, how are you comparing ANYTHING vs that list, it isnt even worth to play against,..... ''6 melee Cenutions with double flamers and bolters" Yeah ok, this doesnt work unless you let it work, b.c he cant be within range of the flamers turn 1, and if you wanted to charge him, Vexator Mask Haemonculus, if you are playing Coven without it, then stop what you are doing and play with it. He should have taken Aggressors, they are just better for the points


Tell him to play with a Lieutenant and Captain with 3 Stalkers and 3 Predators wrap around with Scouts and 60 Guardsman, see how fast your Ravagers/Raiders die turn 1 and then turn 2 watch your Grots do nothing but take 20 wounds after saves.

The ONLY reason no one was taking these before was b.c DS turn 1 charging with Jump units, and 20 Dark Reapers as Ynnari, well those are gone so no need to worry about that anymore.

ehm....Ravenguard Stratagem...you're deploying them at 9" from.the enemy, then move...they are shooting in you in first turn, and even charge you with no problem at all.

And do you know that your list can't nothing right? 3 Stalkers are terrible. 3 Predators are ok but I think you're not shooting against my deepstriking Ravagers. Then make the math and try to find how may Grotesques are you killing with those veichles.
Then I come, those Guardsmen are dying pretty easely (way more than 20, belive me) and let me just 1 net and I will be invincible. You can't shoot me, I can fall back and charge again (if needed, with our stratagem).

But don't worry, you're just losing the game because you don't move at all. Good luck with maelstorm and chapter approved missions.


Serioisly, no, you're overstimate your immobile lists, and understimate RavenGuard infiltrating Aggressors/Centurions. Do you know that in an hypotetical match against that RG you're conceding in turn 1 right? Because he will always in range, and they shoot 12+2D6 shots per model (some of them are autohits).

There's a lack in game perspective, sorry. I know that I sound annoying, it's the same if you don't belive me, these are direct experiences. What I can say is that seems to me that you're into a "stay and just shoot" game, which it was before Chapter Approved. But the game is changed, and belive me you can't even figure how I will move my army against that list in your scenario.
Because I HOPE to find 3 Stalkers+3Predators+60 Guardsman against. It's precisely the kind of list that mine can challemge with no efforts.

amishprn86 wrote:

Have you even played a 100man+ sob list or played against it? B.c i have many games with all the GW's missions.

To be fair, outside of Celestine Sisters are rare as hell at the moment.

Cerve wrote:

ehm....Ravenguard Stratagem...you're deploying them at 9" from.the enemy, then move...they are shooting in you in first turn, and even charge you with no problem at all.

And do you know that your list can't nothing right? 3 Stalkers are terrible. 3 Predators are ok but I think you're not shooting against my deepstriking Ravagers. Then make the math and try to find how may Grotesques are you killing with those veichles.
Then I come, those Guardsmen are dying pretty easely (way more than 20, belive me) and let me just 1 net and I will be invincible. You can't shoot me, I can fall back and charge again (if needed, with our stratagem).

But don't worry, you're just losing the game because you don't move at all. Good luck with maelstorm and chapter approved missions.


Serioisly, no, you're overstimate your immobile lists, and understimate RavenGuard infiltrating Aggressors/Centurions. Do you know that in an hypotetical match against that RG you're conceding in turn 1 right? Because he will always in range, and they shoot 12+2D6 shots per model (some of them are autohits).

There's a lack in game perspective, sorry. I know that I sound annoying, it's the same if you don't belive me, these are direct experiences. What I can say is that seems to me that you're into a "stay and just shoot" game, which it was before Chapter Approved. But the game is changed, and belive me you can't even figure how I will move my army against that list in your scenario.
Because I HOPE to find 3 Stalkers+3Predators+60 Guardsman against. It's precisely the kind of list that mine can challemge with no efforts.

Again, if you let them use that stratagem, then thats your fault, you have kabals, wyches, wracks, etc.. put them on the front edge and your other units behind 9-12", and grots a ting bit behind. He cant do enough damage to kill more than 2 Grots.

I play against SM all the time too, Inceptors, Aggressors, the whole 9 yards, and sure 60 shots are cool, but its bolters with 0 ap and wounds on 5's, cool.... unless you have 100's of shots it doesnt do much.

Stalkers are great against DE, 1 Ravager does 4 wounds to a Stalker, 1 Stalker does 6 wounds to a Ravager (one thats not BH, 5 wounds to BH) and they are cheaper with longer range, and 1 more wound so longer/better chance to keep full BS. How is that bad? You dont need it to be mobile, it shoots 48"

Burnage wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Have you even played a 100man+ sob list or played against it? B.c i have many games with all the GW's missions.

To be fair, outside of Celestine Sisters are rare as hell at the moment.

Very true, i think i'm the only person in my area with 160 models of SOB, i was extremely lucky and got 70+ for 200$ from a piss of SoB player, i have 6k+ SoB army, tho the 12 Tanks are a huge part of that.

Sisters are ridiculously good and people are sleeping on them more than a couch.

I got a bunch of Sisters, but don't want to use them until the codex hits. I still got a huge Drukhari and Harlequin backlog, then we have Knights. I am happy they are a ways off.

TeenageAngst wrote:

Sisters are ridiculously good and people are sleeping on them more than a couch.

The rule of 3 tho killed my tournament list, 18 Scouting units with 90 SB's and 6 HB units, Celetine, 2 Canoness and 3 Imagifiers (I did nt have enough Rets with HBs so i took them), it was 126 models that could shoot over 500 shots turn 1 if i went 1st, 120 of them being HB's, turn 1 SB's if going 1st was 360 shots.    Edit: All with Re-roll 1's, 2000pts on the dot.

Huh lots of different opinions, interesting.

Some things that could make this detachment even better if the answers to both of my following questions are yes (I believe they are?):

Can I include a dedicated transport for each ravager I take? or even only 1 for the archon?
Can I embark units from other detachments and obviously other obsessions into this transport so that I get the FNP?

Crokadilla wrote:

Huh lots of different opinions, interesting.

Some things that could make this detachment even better if the answers to both of my following questions are yes (I believe they are?):

Can I include a dedicated transport for each ravager I take? or even only 1 for the archon?
Can I embark units from other detachments and obviously other obsessions into this transport so that I get the FNP?

You can take a dedicated Transport of any other unit, i sometimes take a Flayed Skull Air Wing and then take 3 Flayed Skull Raiders for my Wyches so they can move 3" faster, but my Wyches do not gain any benefits from the Raiders. Another Example take Black Heart Raiders for the 6+++ and Obsidian Rose Kabals for extra Range.

We can do this b.c our Transport dont have "This model can transport <KEYWORD> units" instead it says "This model can transport Drukhari units"

Man i know how to scree but they don't deepstrike, they infiltrate. They can move after that, and Aggressors still shot at 18" +charge.
Stalkers still bad for their costs, and extremely specialyzed. You don't field them because you're going against DE, we don't lists for opponents here.

Anyway we are way much off topic, and yes Sisters still good but not all on foot in my opinion

Cerve wrote:

Man i know how to scree but they don't deepstrike, they infiltrate. They can move after that, and Aggressors still shot at 18" +charge.
Stalkers still bad for their costs, and extremely specialyzed. You don't field them because you're going against DE, we don't lists for opponents here.

Anyway we are way much off topic, and yes Sisters still good but not all on foot in my opinion

They still have to be 9" away its in the Stratagem, but as a comp standpoint we will ally in jinx/doom/rangers so we will have better screens.

From a Casual standpoint, let him be 9.01" away, move 4" (yes they move 4") so now they are in range to kill 5 kabals and shoot bolters at some grots... cool.. so good. PS you said assault cents before, is he taking both? if so then even better for you thats like 400pts you will kill turn 1 without trying. And he will kill some kabals/wracks and maybe a couple grots, or at best 1 raider.


If you think only DE takes <fly> keyword units then you need to look at more lists, all Aeldari has fly, all SM has fly, Daemons normally have fly, SOB has fly, most DG now are taking fly, some CSM has fly, Tyranids has fly, etc.. Fly is a very important Keyword many have it so they can DS, move faster or charge easier/sooner. It so important players relay on it to win games.

And i'm used to people saying SoB foot lists are bad, players just dont know their rules well enough.

Yep but Stalkers still shoot pretty bad. I mean 6 shots S7 ap-1 D2? Bring in Stormhawks if you must. I agree on Predators, they're pretty good but Stalkers...their output damage is so low
A marine can put way more than that. I know that a lot of stuffs fly today, but Stalker's weapon simply suck, you're not going to do anything on Daemon Princes, Serpents, Destroyers, Foetid Drones etc and maybe overkill DeathCompanies, Tau Drones etc. That's why you see none of them on tables, usually.
Honestly, they are fine (not good) only vs Drukhari.


Anyway you have to consider that if my opponent see that can't infiltrate in a good position (which is not always "doing a lot of damage") he simply will not. And Centurions are far than easy to kill, for their cost. If the RG player is good, he know how to play them. You make it too easy, in realty that's happen only if your opponent doesn't know how to play RG.


PS: I know sisters, act of faith etc, you can win against who got surprised. But footslogging Sisters lists has too many weakness for my taste

Took a break from playing the game due to RL getting busy, but damn, this thread is kinda funny.

I never thought I'd see the day where I see DE players saying DE is too powerful.  Have you guys knocked yourself on the head recently?  DE players have been on the bottom of the totem pole for years, through several army books and editions.  Now that people are getting a sniff that DE is competitive they're freaking the F out and screaming imbalance.  That is just downright comical and frankly embarrassing.  This is also a tell-tale sign that you're probably facing newer players who play netlists all day and don't know jackshit about the competitive history of this game.

Here's a funny thought, some of which have been talked about in this thread already:
> The vast majority of 40K players, competitive or not are not very good strategically or tactically.  They're good at copy and pasting lists that win easy because these lists typically highlight an over-performing unit.   These units are typically safe to play, always make their points back and can fit into any list.  Frankly, most of these lists drive themselves and there's very little in execution.  Just a quick example:  Look at those AdMech Robot lists, CP-farming Shield-Captains or Azrael Hellblaster Deathstars.  Are you seriously telling me that some of the lists I just named requires much thought?
Shockingly, they don't.  They really don't.  What you see right there, in MMO terms, is a GEAR CHECK.  If you can't beat that list, you have no right in a competitive environment.  Right now, PoF Grots and Talos in Meat Mountain fits into this category.

> When you take "good units" to majors and win with them, the meta evolves.  Simple as that.  Competitive players get butt-hurt when they lose, regardless if they admit it or not.  They will lose to Grots, go home, cry about it on the forums for a bit, before they consult with other butt-hurt players and if they're not terribad, come up with multiple solutions.  They will then alter their playstyle, their lists and their unit selection to make Meat Mountain's life painful in a GT setting.  They will play more 1 CP Strategems and not be crap in their CP management or be overly predictable on critical game turns because AoV now exists.

> All this, is healthy for the game believe it or not.  You want icebreakers and meta-changers.  You want the meta to evolve and the players to make it shift.  You want different armies placing in the top 8 tables as list and counter-lists change hands over the next couple of months.  Otherwise, competitive play in this game is boring as crap and not worth anyone's time.

If GW is smart, they will watch and let the meta grow.  If they're stupid, they'll reach for the butcher's knife instead of the scalpel.  In most cases, they should just sit back and wait to see if the symptoms of the meta blossom or turn to cancer.

I really don't think it's freaking out to say that, hey, maybe reducing the cost of one of our better-performing units by a full third was a bit much.

If somebody a few months ago had said that Disintegrator Ravagers needed the same percentage points decrease as Reavers we'd have all called them crazy.