Beef against DE

The only gripe I have with the Dark Eldar Codex is the Madrake entry and their HQ choice Leader. The story makes them out to be extremely awesome choices to field, but their rules make them seem so sad. I mean, the Mandrakes, I can figure out a way to use them (they aren't so different from Tau Stealth Suits, save for the lack of medium range weaponry), but they won't be generally useful in most lists I've started to build.

Their leader. Man. If only he could assault on the turn he arrives. I mean, he can still move and run that turn (se he can rush over toward cover if need be), but the lack of ability to assault makes his 'assassin-like' stats seem less useful. That change alone would at least give me enough interest to field him on occasion. The extra arms are 'meh', but everything else makes it seem like he could be a very effective model. The only downside is that I feel like he has to have a list that is at least partially built around him. -- At least he's only 140 points.

Great models, just not exactly the best for their points.

Yeah. If the decapitaor had been a mandrake unit champion (with somewhat reduced stats and cost but keeping the pain token and power weapons), he'd have fixed the two major problems they have (no power weapons and won't start with a pain token). Shame, cause mandrake fluff and models are awesome.

About the only other things that bother me is that the incubi lack the tormentor devices they're described having, and that the void mine doesn't live up to the hype in the entry at all (and some usual codex envy. Like why the GK asassins can take their dodge saves against shooting but wytches can't, and why doesn't the vexator mask force a ld check on 3d6 like the Necron mindshacle scarabs so that somebody might actually fail it).

As I've understood it though, the tormentor devices is what gives the Incubi one of their two attacks... But I agree with what you say. The mandrakes are the part of DE that doesn't work. I think though, that just because one unit in an army has something (like those scarabs you mentioned), every army shouldn't. Assassins are more dodgy than wyches, strange as it may seem. I think though, that succubi should really get a dodge against shooting.

Maybe 6++ since Lelith got 4++ in addition to her 3++ in CC, I agree this gap between 0% and 50% is unreasonable. IMHO 5++ would be too much tho.

As for Mandrakes... I don't see how gun-less Infiltrators may be useful in army with fastest vehicles in game that are cruicial (12" move + Lance). Maybe if You want make foot army, but You should use Codex: SpOrks in the first place (Kommandoes fit there and also can have cool weapons).
IMHO best way to fix Mandrakes would be ability to give Night Fiend Pain Token in price of XX points (30 sounds reasonable) and maybe Rending.

I'm ofcourse talking about the DC Asassins (Temple ones having insane stats and dodge as good as Lelith's makes perfect sense, as they're augmented to the point of making Marines look normal), who are worse at dodging melee hits than Wytches, but much better at dodging bullets (5++ all the time versus 4++ in melee), which doesn't really add up.

I think there really should be more consistency between codexes, so all units with a "dodge" save would work the same, all hallucinogen grenades would have atleast somewhat similar effects (instead of the Harlequin ones giving offensive grenades, the DE ones giving offensive and defensive grenades,exept the vehicle mounted ones which give -1 ld, and GK ones allowing to autowin the first round of combat) etc..

I do wonder if in 6th deep striking will be more random/dangerous but you can assault after - which would make the placeable decapitator really good!

It'd make Duke S. better though - DSing Wyches with drug re-roll...::drool::

Well, You can do that... no assault and 60~ price increase tho .
I hope Fleet would allow assault after DS in 6th ed.

I really wish mandrakes were worth fielding, but they suck… a lot especially the decapitator

Local_Ork wrote:

Well, You can do that... no assault and 60~ price increase tho .
I hope Fleet would allow assault after DS in 6th ed.

Until you can assault the turn you DS - you can't do this.

I've been trying to find a place in my army list to for Mandrakes, and i just can't! It's very frustrating, seeing as the models are absolutley stunning, and as a painter, i'd really like to field them for looks and utility - but not as they stand at the moment.

I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but
*eats the beef*
Mmm, beefy...

Since the decapitator has baleblast and starts with a pain token i thought the first thing you were supposed to do with him when he arrives is use his shooting thing to hopefully pin whatever he's going to assault the next turn.

ZaGstrike wrote:

hopefully

I think that about sums it up.

Ah Derpcrapitator raisis his useless head once more.

back to sleep now precious , this is not your edition ....

I think its down to the author of the codex, DE are a fair and balanced army with many things that sound awesome but suck. Compare that to the author of the GK codex and the Necron codex who does the opposite by creating things that sound good, and are very good and are ridiculously unfair and unbalanced... I mean look at the doomsday barge- St-9 AP-1 large blast- that's what the void mine should be, and should have multiple ones.

Unfortunately a lot of the wargear options available (most of the Haemonicli and vehicle upgrades) are not competitive because of the op of other armies which is a shame.

But then I guess its the fact that DE are an underpowered (largely) and fair army that gives us DE players a sense of pride and accomplishment over others when we do win and a genuine sense of achievement, also something other then dice to blame failures on!

DE isnt an underpowerd army, its a well balanced army, that does well in turnements and are better than alot of armys infact.

We just have other strenghts and weaknesses than other and use our army differantly. Dont think Necrons, GK etc are owerpowerd at all. Havnt lost to GK yet myself, I find that when they dont tailor list they always end up with a bad matchup in us anyway. When they tailor, sure then we are having some real issues against them...

There are units that dont work as they should, sure, but those exsist in every codex. We have units that are OP aswell.

We do ? Which ones might those be ? Everything in the book is slightly underpowered for what you pay

Darklight wrote:

DE isnt an underpowerd army, its a well balanced army, that does well in turnements and are better than alot of armys infact.

We just have other strenghts and weaknesses than other and use our army differantly. Dont think Necrons, GK etc are owerpowerd at all. Havnt lost to GK yet myself, I find that when they dont tailor list they always end up with a bad matchup in us anyway. When they tailor, sure then we are having some real issues against them...

There are units that dont work as they should, sure, but those exsist in every codex. We have units that are OP aswell.

If you haven't lost to GK's yet I'd love to know what lists you are facing.

Tend to agree we have a pretty well balanced codex but our AT in the new never stunned/shaken environment (thank-you Mr Ward {d1ck}) just plain sucks. Without spamming as much as possible some lists are just plain impossible to shut down.

The more recent codices leave us trailing in their wake.

The DE codex is well balanced on the whole... Internally most of the stuff is pretty good... I assume rules for 5th... it is possible they will get better for 6th... Mandrakes are meh and some of the special characters ain't great due to rules or cost... WTF is with Vect and his pimp-wagon... Incubi lacking grenades... Bloodbrides could have something to make them stand out compared to the standard wyches...

The problem is some of the other codices are OTT...

Off the top of my head...

GK: Making space marines strike before armies that rely on speed isn't cool... I5 would have been fine but I6 is OTT... Fortitude is nuts for how cheap it is.

IG: Mech guard is way too cheap... bump chimeras back up to their old points cost and things start to look better. (Or make DE transports 10-20pts cheaper...)

BA: Make everything fast... eeek for the cost I would be happy with movement bonuses or shooting bonuses for vehicles but both combined cause real problems...

Fairly minor changes I think but I believe they would have a significant impact.

Overall it is fairly small things.

agree with the above- as a stand alone codex, all seems fair, compared to Matt Ward ones though-definitely not, basically the Matt Ward codex's have similar rules as the DE codex but pimped a bit, for example Vexator mask and Mindshackle, both are supposed to impede the assaulter, Mindshackle however takes full control and on a 3D6 leadership! That's OP. Void Mine/Doomsday Ark- same essential principle, Matt Ward gives Necrons unlimited St9 Ap2 largeblast we get S9 AP2 small blast, and one shot.

With respect to GK, only lost once to them myself but if done correctly, GK should win most times. Would also REALLY REALLY REALLY like to know what is OP in the DE codex? Only one I can think of is Lelith Hesperax, but then look at the points cost, toughness and strength???

Personally, and the people who I play with, who both frequently play Grey Knights, Necrons and Imperial Guard all admit, that compared to each other they are on a par, compared to armies such as DE, Eldar, Tau etc even they feel that they are OP. A good example was the 3 way 2500 point game we had today- DE vs Tau vs IG. DE obliterated all Tau infantry while could not scratch the Tau Vehicles let alone the 15 IG tanks steamrolling across the board only to destroy everything left, would be good if they brought back the rule that skimmers that have moved at cruising speed may only take glancing hits.

kenny3760 wrote:

Darklight wrote:

DE isnt an underpowerd army, its a well balanced army, that does well in turnements and are better than alot of armys infact.

We just have other strenghts and weaknesses than other and use our army differantly. Dont think Necrons, GK etc are owerpowerd at all. Havnt lost to GK yet myself, I find that when they dont tailor list they always end up with a bad matchup in us anyway. When they tailor, sure then we are having some real issues against them...

There are units that dont work as they should, sure, but those exsist in every codex. We have units that are OP aswell.

If you haven't lost to GK's yet I'd love to know what lists you are facing.

Tend to agree we have a pretty well balanced codex but our AT in the new never stunned/shaken environment (thank-you Mr Ward {d1ck}) just plain sucks. Without spamming as much as possible some lists are just plain impossible to shut down.

The more recent codices leave us trailing in their wake.

The lists I played the last times was something like this:
Librarian
5x Termies
15x Grayknights
3x Razorback
3x Dreadnought (one elite)
1x Land rider
1x Stormraven gunship
Psyamo on most of it...

Yes I do agree our AT is a bitch, it is weak at best.
But I dont have much trouble against any Marine tbh, lost most against SW tho, but still managed fine against them. I still have yet to win a game against IG tho, have drawn matches, not won any tho :/ havnt played that many IG teams either...