New Harlequins rules Leaked

I tried 9 Hexrifles, i did not like it lol. Tho you might, go and try it and let me know.

Yeah, I don't think it would be super competitive but against armies with relatively weak characters, with less than 5+ wounds, I think it could be pretty fun to play. Plus the ability to do 3dmg for each 5+ to wound (if they fail their armor save) also seems like it might be decent.

Just out of curiosity, when playing your DT Raider list, how do you survive going second against a good gunline or 3-4 shooty Knights (Castellan and multiple Crusaders or dual-wielding Chaos Knights)?

So far everyone has shot the Talos and it takes more than 1 Knight to kill 1 unit, having 6 at least means the knights never shoot "raiders + wracks, b.c raiders and wracks are not scary". That is until all 30 Wracks jump out and run being 1 turn away from everything and the 10+ raiders kills a Knight lol, also i still normally have 2-4 Talos alive after words. It seems to be about 18-20 wounds average to them.

But i have a friend that plays only knights too, so no soup. Might be different with some assassins or Guardsmen.

amishprn86 wrote:

So far everyone has shot the Talos and it takes more than 1 Knight to kill 1 unit, having 6 at least means the knights never shoot "raiders + wracks, b.c raiders and wracks are not scary".  That is until all 30 Wracks jump out and run being 1 turn away from everything and the 10+ raiders kills a Knight lol, also i still normally have 2-4 Talos alive after words. It seems to be about 18-20 wounds average to them.

But i have a friend that plays only knights too, so no soup. Might be different with some assassins or Guardsmen.

Can I ask you what’s your typical list? As 6 Talos, 10 raiders, 30 wracks and 2 Heamonculus are almost 1900 points and just one battalion. Also very little anti infantry output.

Honestly, no one plays infantry anymore from what i've seen with Marines meta. The few players i have played against with lots of body count/infantry are a daemon player (Slaanesh actually) 2 Ork, and 2 nid players. They had the most models i have seen in over a 9 months, and it still wasn't a lot, Ork had like 60 troops in total and the Nid had 90 ish, Slaanesh 50 infantry and a few big guys. I just shot and melee with everything Wracks are pretty good vs light infantry honestly. And Wracks as sponges lol.

For the nid player, i needed to kill his 20 genestealers first, b.c i know how they are and how fast they can be i killing 1 group and leaving a full second one is not a good idea, so i killed 10 in group 1 then 10 in group 2 and ignored the rest, it was more like 12 and 9 killed or something. Then i tried to put a couple wrack units in the way. It worked out well.

The Ork players both had almost the same list, lots of Guns and grots in front. Just shoot the guns and melee the grots, wasn't bad at all.

There was a Daemon player with 2x10 daemonettes and 1x30 DSing Daemonettes. He was pretty easy as he had a Knight and 3 Lord D's and basically just Daemonettes and 1 unit of DS terminiators i think? Either way i killed his Knight turn 1 and a Lord D, he didn't want to charge after that with other 2 Lord D's b.c Talos and wanted to wait till turn 2 with DSing support. So hit turn 2 with Wracks around the edges his Daemonettes and Terminators did almost nothing.

So i never had played against a real horde list, so IDK how i will do.


OH PS: I take Drazhar in a double Bat, or i take Bat+Spearhead, been playing Double bat to give others more room to breath.


My list is

Haemonculus
Haemonculus
Wrack x5
Wrack x5
Wrack x5
Talos x3, HWB
Raider DC PGL
Raider DC PGL
Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC

Haemonculus
Drazhar
Wrack x5
Wrack x5
Wrack x5
Talos x3, HWB
Raider DC PGL
Raider DC PGL
Raider DC
Raider DC
Raider DC

Interesting list. I haven't tried non-PoF Talos. Do you find they last more than one or two turns of shooting?

Also, are the PGL just to fill up extra points? I'm not sure I've ever actually used them in this edition.

PGL are extra and i always take 2-3 no matter what, never know when you need 1 D3 MW's.

Talso do fine for the most part. It kinda depends on who i fight but with 6 of them i almost always have some turn 2 and 3. I'm not to worried about them. But if i want to be mean i'll just take a Spearhead of PoF ones and Urien. No one likes them lol.

Oh, my bad, I missed the second unit of three.  Yeah, six, even without PoF, is pretty hard for any army to remove in one or two turns, particularly if they're also getting blasted by 10 DT dissie Raiders each turn.  After I take the new Harlequins for a spin, I'm looking forward to trying your list out.

Edit: do you take any weapons on the haemies or wracks, such as hex rifles, scissor hands, venom blades, etc.? What war lord trait and relic do you take?

On the topic of Harlequin rules, I think the biggest winner is the Deathjester for sure. 2 Dreaming Shadow deathjesters with both relics seems like an excellent use of 90 points.

Pairing them with a Solitaire in a vanguard detachment (with 6+ bikes for the one fast attack) seems like the obvious move. Although I'm not terribly impressed with the Solitaire any more.

What is its role now?

It used to be an excellent delivery system for the Starmist Raiment to stop overwatch, and still is, but the Shadowseer has the Veil of Illusion aura now that effectively stops flamer weapon overwatch, and the Deathjester has Humbling Cruelty which cancels overwatch from 24" away, rather than by charging, and for less than half the cost.

He used to be a pretty good assassin for smaller squads and characters that don't want to be in combat, and still is, but a Troupe master is a straight beat stick for 38 points cheaper!

The Solitaire's new abilities are neat, but are more less different incarnations of his current specialty--being a hyper-fast infantry character. Except all of these trade the +2 attacks of Blitz for different kinds of speed. Very side-grade feeling here.

I'm afraid the only reason he would make it into lists any more is he doesn't represent the opportunity cost of relic usage, pre-game CPs, and warlord traits.

When I'm writing lists and looking to fill out a harlequin vanguard, I'm going to have a hard time justifying him over a 3rd DJ.

Solitaire being able to stop overwatch too seems good, thats 2 units that can not OW now. But you could also just have a TM do that too.

I think if you are taking a full Vanguard, then just take the Solitaire, its only like 50pts more and do you really need a 3rd DJ?

sekac wrote:

On the topic of Harlequin rules, I think the biggest winner is the Deathjester for sure. 2 Dreaming Shadow deathjesters with both relics seems like an excellent use of 90 points.

Pairing them with a Solitaire in a vanguard detachment (with 6+ bikes for the one fast attack) seems like the obvious move. Although I'm not terribly impressed with the Solitaire any more.

What is its role now?

It used to be an excellent delivery system for the Starmist Raiment to stop overwatch, and still is, but the Shadowseer has the Veil of Illusion aura now that effectively stops flamer weapon overwatch, and the Deathjester has Humbling Cruelty which cancels overwatch from 24" away, rather than by charging, and for less than half the cost.

He used to be a pretty good assassin for smaller squads and characters that don't want to be in combat, and still is, but a Troupe master is a straight beat stick for 38 points cheaper!

The Solitaire's new abilities are neat, but are more less different incarnations of his current specialty--being a hyper-fast infantry character. Except all of these trade the +2 attacks of Blitz for different kinds of speed. Very side-grade feeling here.

I'm afraid the only reason he would make it into lists any more is he doesn't represent the opportunity cost of relic usage, pre-game CPs, and warlord traits.

When I'm writing lists and looking to fill out a harlequin vanguard, I'm going to have a hard time justifying him over a 3rd DJ.

I don't think the Solitaire's role has really changed. He's a scalpel you use to surgically remove a key character. Plus, in terms of the psychological aspect of the game, opponents who know what he CAN do (not that he necessarily always does) are usually terrified of him and it can force them to make mistakes in movement and positioning which is where Harlequins need to win the game.

amishprn86 wrote:

Solitaire being able to stop overwatch too seems good, thats 2 units that can not OW now. But you could also just have a TM do that too.

I think if you are taking a full Vanguard, then just take the Solitaire, its only like 50pts more and do you really need a 3rd DJ?

I'd probably run 2 DJs with Humbling Cruelty and 1 with the new relic and Harvester of Torment. That gives me 2 overwatch stops and one to just cause havoc on pretty much whatever.

sweetbacon wrote:

I don't think the Solitaire's role has really changed.  He's a scalpel you use to surgically remove a key character.  Plus, in terms of the psychological aspect of the game, opponents who know what he CAN do (not that he necessarily always does) are usually terrified of him and it can force them to make mistakes in movement and positioning which is where Harlequins need to win the game.  

His role hasn't changed, but Troupe Masters are so much better at killing a character now, and for so much cheaper that I don't think the additional speed is worth it.

A dreaming shadow TM with the new relic blade and Darkness' Touch will do 2 mortal wounds guaranteed, plus somewhere between 6 and 12 attacks with a weapon far better than than the Solitaire's options. And even if he loses the fight, will deal one more attack and 2 more MW on a 4+ (re-roll with CP if it makes the difference!).

All that said, the decision process changes dramatically if we're talking about an entirely, or at least predominantly harlequin force. In that case, troupe masters are more likely using their auras to buff other units or otherwise close to focus damage in one area of the battle. The Solitaire's role as a lone wolf hunter is still valuable then.

I consistently run 2 drukhari battalions and then either an outrider or vanguard of something else (either more Drukhari or Harlequins, usually). In that case, the troupe master doesn't have much value as an aura character, and I can use him as a far more significant threat to frontline characters. I think the threat of the far superior damage capability will control the field more than a few more inches of speed. Especially at such savings!

I have never been interested in buying a White Dwarf magazine before, but now I am. :3 Can anyone tell me what issue I need to get for these rules?

I think I'll try to run a freak army with a Coven and a Harlequin detachment. Not sure what the third will be, but I suddenly have a lot of inspiration.

sekac wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Solitaire being able to stop overwatch too seems good, thats 2 units that can not OW now. But you could also just have a TM do that too.

I think if you are taking a full Vanguard, then just take the Solitaire, its only like 50pts more and do you really need a 3rd DJ?

I'd probably run 2 DJs with Humbling Cruelty and 1 with the new relic and Harvester of Torment. That gives me 2 overwatch stops and one to just cause havoc on pretty much whatever.

Just to make sure you know. You can only have 1 of each Pivotal Roles, so only 1 anti-OW DJ.

Gelmir wrote:

I have never been interested in buying a White Dwarf magazine before, but now I am. :3 Can anyone tell me what issue I need to get for these rules?

454 i believe. Its officially out next month.

amishprn86 wrote:

Just to make sure you know. You can only have 1 of each Pivotal Roles, so only 1 anti-OW DJ.

Oh I see that now. I thought that restriction was only in reference to the Stratagem, since it is also prohibited there. I now see that the same restriction is made elsewhere and the language in the stratagem is redundant.

Oh well. The sniper Pivotal Role will be good too, especially with the Dreaming Shadow stratagem to multiply hits and increase the chances of mortal wounds.

sekac wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Solitaire being able to stop overwatch too seems good, thats 2 units that can not OW now. But you could also just have a TM do that too.

I think if you are taking a full Vanguard, then just take the Solitaire, its only like 50pts more and do you really need a 3rd DJ?

I'd probably run 2 DJs with Humbling Cruelty and 1 with the new relic and Harvester of Torment. That gives me 2 overwatch stops and one to just cause havoc on pretty much whatever.

sweetbacon wrote:

I don't think the Solitaire's role has really changed.  He's a scalpel you use to surgically remove a key character.  Plus, in terms of the psychological aspect of the game, opponents who know what he CAN do (not that he necessarily always does) are usually terrified of him and it can force them to make mistakes in movement and positioning which is where Harlequins need to win the game.  

His role hasn't changed, but Troupe Masters are so much better at killing a character now, and for so much cheaper that I don't think the additional speed is worth it.

A dreaming shadow TM with the new relic blade and Darkness' Touch will do 2 mortal wounds guaranteed, plus somewhere between 6 and 12 attacks with a weapon far better than than the Solitaire's options. And even if he loses the fight, will deal one more attack and 2 more MW on a 4+ (re-roll with CP if it makes the difference!).

All that said, the decision process changes dramatically if we're talking about an entirely, or at least predominantly harlequin force. In that case, troupe masters are more likely using their auras to buff other units or otherwise close to focus damage in one area of the battle. The Solitaire's role as a lone wolf hunter is still valuable then.

I consistently run 2 drukhari battalions and then either an outrider or vanguard of something else (either more Drukhari or Harlequins, usually). In that case, the troupe master doesn't have much value as an aura character, and I can use him as a far more significant threat to frontline characters. I think the threat of the far superior damage capability will control the field more than a few more inches of speed. Especially at such savings!

No question, the TM did get much better and if you give him the Twilight Fang, he can now rival the Solitaire as an assassin, but I think getting free Doom in CC makes him too valuable to throw away unless I'm bringing 2-3. But, I agree that if you're just allying in Quins with DE/CWE, he's nearly as good as a Solitaire if you just wanted to take out one key target.

sweetbacon wrote:

No question, the TM did get much better and if you give him the Twilight Fang, he can now rival the Solitaire as an assassin, but I think getting free Doom in CC makes him too valuable to throw away unless I'm bringing 2-3.  But, I agree that if you're just allying in Quins with DE/CWE, he's nearly as good as a Solitaire if you just wanted to take out one key target.  

I know we mostly agree here, but I've got to quibble on your last sentence. He is NOT "nearly as good", he is hands down better at killing than a Solitaire. The solitaire trades a significant amount of damage for some additional speed. If you can reliably get a Troupe master where he needs to go, there is no reason to use the Solitaire because he is unquestionably worse at doing the deed once he gets there.

Yeah but the Solitaire can be more damage now with its always -1 and suit of Knives whahaha.

I think my 1st 2 relics every game now are Fang and Suit.

After thinking about it more, I'm more inclined to agree about the TM's utility over a Solitaire. I think I'd rather just take three TMs in a double battalion, give one of them the relic, and let him go hunt characters and skip the Solitaire. He doesn't have the speed of the Solitaire but a FS TM on turn three or after is putting out nearly as many attacks at higher strength and still rerolling wounds. The suit of hidden knives build could be really hilarious but I view that as more of a gimmick.

I'm also very intrigued by a Supreme Command detachment of 2 Troupe Masters and a Shadowseer forming a little combat cluster. Leave one TM with Choreographer of War, and give the other Darkness' Touch and the Fang relic.

A single DJ, maybe with the relic, for support. For a single DJ, I'd probably go with Humbling Cruelty to stop overwatch for my character ball.

That is actually a very good idea. Supreme lets you take 1 Elite so amazing if you don't want Skyweavers.

I think it almost necessitates a Dart Technomancer clutch of talos to make up for the haywire from the bikes, but that's not exactly a hard sell.

How does War Dancers interact with abilities that let a model stand back up at the end of the phase? So if you kill something and then it uses a stratagem or ability to resurrect at the end of the fight phase but more than 1 inch away from an enemy model, can you use War Dancers to pile in and fight it again?

Whoever turn it is chooses the Order of abilities when more than one work at the same time. But some also has been faqed (like the Tyranid one i think) that says they are not effected by XYZ as they are "slain" for the rest of that phase and must be last.

So check the faq first, then if nothing the player who's turn it is chooses the order.