Grotesque Support

Having played a few 9th edition games now, I'm finding that Grotesques are definitely my lynchpin unit for trying to hold primary objectives in the center of the board.  I have been using Urien for the +1S, but honestly am not impressed with how little it seems to make a difference on wound rolls.  I also don't tend to send the Grotesques forward in an aggressive manner, but rather try to hold the objective with them while the Talos, with Fly, is better suited for finding offensive opportunities as they come up.

I have also seen the devastation caused by being charged by an elite enemy unit when the opponent tries to knock the Grots off the objective, so I will be switching Urien out for a Vex Mask Haemonculus to give the Grotesques some defensive support.  I figure this will nullify the single, elite unit that the enemy would send in to kill the Grotesques holding an objective, so is that enough? Do most of you use the Vex Haemonculus and then just add more bodies?  Would it be overkill to add, at the expense of a Talos, a Shadowseer with the Agent of Bedlam Pivotal Role?

Agent of Bedlam: While an enemy unit is within 6" of this model, subtract 1 from the Attacks characteristic of models in that unit (to a minimum of 1).

Under the right circumstances, this would eliminate 25-33% of the attack output of enemy melee units fighting with the Grotesques over objectives.  How many games do you expect to see play out to a large scrum around the center?  I'm also eyeballing the Shadowseer stratagem that looks really tasty to give to Drazhar as a bonus.

Mythic Role: Use this Stratagem before the battle, if your army includes a Shadowseer.  Select one Aeldari unit from your army.  Each time that unit is chosen to shoot or fight, you can re-roll one hit roll or one wound roll for those attacks.  You can only use this Stratagem once.

I haven't tested it yet, but on paper a Bedlam Shadowseer looks to me like one of the best buffing options for our melee units. Reducing enemy melee by one attack per model is huge, especially when you're pairing it with an already durable unit like Grotesques.

Mythic Role is okay on Draz but you've got to weigh up how useful it is compared to, say, just giving him his warlord trait.

The trick here is that both of them force you to use a Harlequin detachment, which basically pigeonholes you into just one of our subfactions unless you want command point costs to be exorbitant. I don't think that's necessarily a huge deal (Harleycovens is something that gets discussed a lot on various Discords) but it does restrict our flexibility substantially compared to a standard Raiding Force.

As someone already looking to mix DE and Harlequins, I just wanted to thank you for making me realise that a Shadowseer with Agent of Bedlam can also protect DE models.

I have also been running a 8 man Grot Bomb for mid-field, and recently changed out the Vexator Mask for the Helm of Spite. I feel that in 99% of my matches (necrons/Nids/Guard) the main thing that scares the Grots isnt CC but psykic attacks.

My main fear is to run up against a Null Zone Librarian who turns off our ++ save. *shudders*

I agree that the S6 doesnt do much over the S5.

I assume you are using your Grots to bully more than attack? If you can wait until Turn 3, you get re-roll charges and WS 2+. Combined with Torturers Craft (re-roll wounds for 2 CP) you can get pretty reliable at killing things either with MW or AP-2.

My main weakness with Grots is my own bloodlust. Need to hold in position until turn 3, and not go running out on Turn 2. I win most games where I wait until Turn 3, but lose the Grots almost every time I run out on Turn 2.

What are you running against that has you so fearful of CC?

I think the best option is still the Vexator Haemunculus.
Urien is expensive and +1 Str in not relevant, esp. when you use re-roll to wound strat. He costs as much as a unit of Mandrakes, but I rather prefer Mandrakes as they can make missions.

Agent of Bedlam seems to be sweet. But for us it will cost arm and leg. Using Hrleys means no Rading Force, so less CP. So you will try to put all the Drukhari units in one Battalion, that means no Agents of Vect. In this manner it seems reasonable to take more Harley units, which are very powerful and fast and resilient. And you habe limited number of CPs and you must pay for both factions' stratagems which are kinda expensive.
So why bother taking Coven at all?

SERAFF wrote:

I think the best option is still the Vexator Haemunculus.
Urien is expensive and +1 Str in not relevant, esp. when you use re-roll to wound strat. He costs as much as a unit of Mandrakes, but I rather prefer Mandrakes as they can make missions.

Agent of Bedlam seems to be sweet. But for us it will cost arm and leg. Using Hrleys means no Rading Force, so less CP. So you will try to put all the Drukhari units in one Battalion, that means no Agents of Vect. In this manner it seems reasonable to take more Harley units, which are very powerful and fast and resilient. And you habe limited number of CPs and you must pay for both factions' stratagems which are kinda expensive.
So why bother taking Coven at all?

You would drop BH for Coven+Harley. AoV today is super expensive and when you drop that 1 it's an HUGE hit.

Who cares of Vect when you have both Coven and Harley shenanigans.

Cerve wrote:

AoV today is super expensive and when you drop that 1 it's an HUGE hit.

What do you mean "today is expensive"? Today , when we have our solid 12 CP, it is affordable. And in some cases it may win your game.

Of course it can be dropped in favor of the Haley's shenanigans. But they are very pricy too. When I play Quinns I have a scheldule for every stratagem I will use and there is no free CP left. Adding Coven to Haley's just limits your shenanigans.

SERAFF wrote:

Cerve wrote:

AoV today is super expensive and when you drop that 1 it's an HUGE hit.

What do you mean "today is expensive"? Today , when we have our solid 12 CP, it is affordable. And in some cases it may win your game.

Of course it can be dropped in favor of the Haley's shenanigans. But they are very pricy too. When I play Quinns I have a scheldule for every stratagem I will use and there is no free CP left. Adding Coven to Haley's just limits your shenanigans.

It is expensive because in 9th 1/6 times it fails. And as you can "win" games for it, when you drop the 1 you can "lose" the game itself too.
So it becames more an add on, not something into rely too much. And personally, I don't like the idea to play with -4 CPs once every six casts.

So yes, it's way less mandatory now than before.

Lol, this is becoming a AoV discussion.

For my $0.02, I have given up on BH in general and dont miss having AoV. Last time I used it I rolled a 1, then re-rolled for a second 1. Now we dont even get that re-roll. Honestly, most other factions have figured out that we have AoV and play like we can counter their Strats even when we cant. I dont see it adding much.

Also, I used to run double Battalion in 8th for 13CP (Kabal + Coven). 12CP is not an upgrade IMHO.

Honestly, what are you guys running into that you need the Vexator mask near your Grots? Talos can use the extra "umph", but Ive always been happy with just the Grots and 2CP for Torturers Craft. Even the Haemi to increase from T5 to T6 seldom comes into play.

SERAFF wrote:

I think the best option is still the Vexator Haemunculus.
Urien is expensive and +1 Str in not relevant, esp. when you use re-roll to wound strat. He costs as much as a unit of Mandrakes, but I rather prefer Mandrakes as they can make missions.

Agent of Bedlam seems to be sweet. But for us it will cost arm and leg. Using Hrleys means no Rading Force, so less CP. So you will try to put all the Drukhari units in one Battalion, that means no Agents of Vect. In this manner it seems reasonable to take more Harley units, which are very powerful and fast and resilient. And you habe limited number of CPs and you must pay for both factions' stratagems which are kinda expensive.
So why bother taking Coven at all?

Do you think taking a Harlequin detachment along with a couple of DE detachments would be completely crippling, then?

Me personally, I didn't play 8th edition so am still getting used to stratagems, and have finished my three games with at least 5 CPs to spare. So, for now, I'm happy with the pre-game CP sink that a Harlequin detachment requires.

@Oaka, do you ever use the 2CP Stratagem for Torturers Craft? It is seriously needed to turn the Grots up to 11.

Im finding that most of my lists are giving up easy Bring It Down (kill Monsters and Vehicles). Grots are a great way to get around this. Im thinking that I will drop my clutch of 3 Taloi for another squad of Grots to try and make the Secondary selection harder for the opponent.

I always have Torturer's Craft in mind, but find myself holding off from using it on Grotesques quite a bit.  The reason being that I hold myself to a 1 CP = D3 Mortal Wounds type of exchange, as a lot of stratagems either deal D3 MWs or heal/prevent D3 wounds at the cost of 1 CP.  So, for 2 CP, I want Torturer's Craft to deal around 4 extra wounds.  This is where the D1 of Grotesques hurts them, as I would need at least 7 Grotesques fighting marines to have the right odds to meet my exchange rate.  Even a unit of 3 Taloi only just approaches this against marines.

Compare this to the Mythic Role stratagem placed on Drazhar that I brought up earlier, and he only needs to cause one extra failed save due to it to 'break even', and it's active for the entire game.

I place a higher value on positioning stratagems like Fire and Fade, Black Cornucopians, Heroes' Path, etc. Black Cornucopians is my idea of a top-tier stratagem because you get unit repositioning combined with wound regeneration (if I bring 4 Wracks back I've met my exchange).

Ive been running my Grots in broods of 8 recently, and that re-roll to wound is clutch.

I actually perfer it when I am only wounding on 5s, since we get more chances for that sweet 6 to wound.

Now if only I could keep my bloodlust in check until Turn 3 when the Grots go to WS 2+...

I've mostly played with 2 units of talos and only a four man grotesque squad in my covens detachment. The four man unit of grotesques is mostly only four due to not having enough points to put a fifth in. I liked the eight man in 8th edition but, with blast I'm trying to hold them under the 6+ threshold. One of the guys I play frequently has picked up necrons and doomsday arks can wound grotesques easily is they don't have haemonculus support. Outside of strength 3 or 10 weapons I find grots don't really need a huge amount of support. They usually function as a unit that can split away from the haemonculii if I need them to for mission purposes.

Doomsday Arc is strength 8 or 9, right? T5/6 would get wounded on the same roll either way.

I honestly think that even with the point increases to Grots, they are superior to the Talos. The only thing Talos do better is they have ranged Assault weapons to allow Fire and Fade. But then they are outside of the Haemonculi +1T, and its a big deal dropping from T7 to T6.

A little salty that I just finished building/painting a clutch of 3 Talos...

fisheyes wrote:

But then they are outside of the Haemonculi +1T, and its a big deal dropping from T7 to T6.

In which case would it matter to drop from T7 to T6? Which weapon are you fearing specifically?

Autocannons are still pretty Meta (S7 AP-1 D2), at least until the Heavy Bolter update completely invalidates them.

Imperial Guard Bullgryn also hit with the same profile in melee

I feel like there are quite a few S7 weapons in the game

I feel like grotesques and Talos compliment eachother well. Opponents fear Talos early because they can shoot, so they feel compelled to try to drop them early. This allows grotesques and opportunity to advance upheld unhurt.

I've got a blob of 8 PoF grotesques backed up by Vexator Mask, and 2 squads of 2 DT Talos, one of which is usually in range of a haemonculus. It's a lot to chew through, and whichever they focus on killing, the other will do well.

In my experience, most opponents start to ignore the Talos once they figure out what they can do. When we had dual Splinter Cannons on them they had enough shots that their BS4+ didnt matter much. Since 9th, the most they have done for me is strip the last few wounds with some Haywire Blaster shots. Unfortunately the Haywire doesnt do much when you go up against a non-vehicle enemy (Tau, Tyranids, some Marines).

One of the draws for Grots (for me anyway) is that the only real support they need is 2CP and MOAR GROTS!

You really do need a second block of Grots for when your primary block dies. 8 Grots will eat the fire of an ENTIRE army. They will be dead, but thats one turn where your Wracks are sitting pretty on Objectives

fisheyes wrote:

In my experience, most opponents start to ignore the Talos once they figure out what they can do. When we had dual Splinter Cannons on them they had enough shots that their BS4+ didnt matter much. Since 9th, the most they have done for me is strip the last few wounds with some Haywire Blaster shots. Unfortunately the Haywire doesnt do much when you go up against a non-vehicle enemy (Tau, Tyranids, some Marines).

One of the draws for Grots (for me anyway) is that the only real support they need is 2CP and MOAR GROTS!

You really do need a second block of Grots for when your primary block dies. 8 Grots will eat the fire of an ENTIRE army. They will be dead, but thats one turn where your Wracks are sitting pretty on Objectives

8 is all I own, and I don't really want to buy/convert more.

And I've made it well known on this site how I feel about DT haywires and especially twin-liquifier guns. My opponents can't ignore them, though I pray they try!

I would show a consideration: Mandrakes are considered a good choice for harrass, ground controll, etc.
Their fire is 2 shots S4 AP-1 D1, MWs on 6+.
A single Haywire blaster is D3 shots S4 AP-1 D1, MWs on veichles.

I would not consider Haywire bad against no-veichle units. I find their shoot still good against T3 light infantry (which is exactly the bad target for poison). So it is a super good weapon against veichles (which are alot now) and still usefull against light infantry (quite similar to Mandrakes, you trade the MWs on organic for more MWs on veichles).

I'm even...I'm not crazy, but I'm dropping 3 Ravagers for 3x5 Haywire Scourges. I find them so easy to hide, and against no-los I just DS them. In some lists I prefer them even over Rava

I dont disagree that HW is strong, it just has some match-ups where it does very little. Tyranids and Tau are the ones that jump into my mind. If they were able to do MW on non-vehicle units, or the Talos had a BS3+, it would be a different story. YMMV of course.

Glad you are having some success with Scourges! Always loved those models/fluff.

fisheyes wrote:

I dont disagree that HW is strong, it just has some match-ups where it does very little. Tyranids and Tau are the ones that jump into my mind. If they were able to do MW on non-vehicle units, or the Talos had a BS3+, it would be a different story. YMMV of course.

Glad you are having some success with Scourges! Always loved those models/fluff.

The thing is, Ravagers gives 2VPs each too easy. I'm tweaking some choices, I wanna re-try them now

fisheyes wrote:

Doomsday Arc is strength 8 or 9, right? T5/6 would get wounded on the same roll either way.

I honestly think that even with the point increases to Grots, they are superior to the Talos. The only thing Talos do better is they have ranged Assault weapons to allow Fire and Fade. But then they are outside of the Haemonculi +1T, and its a big deal dropping from T7 to T6.

A little salty that I just finished building/painting a clutch of 3 Talos...

Doomsday Arc is strength 10. They hurt grotesques fairly efficiently. It's a match up were I keep them close the haemonculus.