A returning players opinions on our units; Succubus

Who wants a character with truly eye watering offence? us apparently lets take a look.

Succubus
They Wych cult leaders are among the best melee characters in the game. Their dps is absolutely no joke once upgraded. Base line they come with an agoniser (I'm sure everyone is familiar with this piece of kit) and the archite glaive a +2 str ap3 damae one weapon, a succubus can happily throw out 6 str 6 attacks before any upgrades (yes ok I put the point from combat drugs into strength in that example).

However it is only when Obsessions, traits and relics are added that they become truly horrifying. A few of the builds I have seen (that don't rely on infinite attacks) are;

Quick silver fighter, triptych whip, adrenalight; Nothing flashy here just a bag of attacks that are poison 2+ -3 ap and damage 2. Will beat most characters to death happily and will do high levels of damage to most squads.

Treacherous deceiver, traitors embrace; The "stop hitting yourself" build I haven't mentioned it till now but I will here a succubus is only 60 points way less than almost all the other apex melee characters. This build can be a good way to deal with a troublesome character or monster with mutualy assured destruction.

Quick silver fighter, The blood glaive, Grave lotus; 8 strength 6 attacks with -3 ap and damage 3, great vs all those 3 wound models running around these days, can make an absolute mess of most characters as it can kill in 2 hits.

(book of rust booo) Precision blows, Dark lotus toxin, grave lotus/adrenalight, wych weapons; This is a nasty combo, you can role 14 dice with razorflails and any 6 to hit inflicts 2 mortal wounds or 8 dice with a shardnet and Impaler and any 6's do 3 mortal wounds. role slightly above average on either weapon and you will be dishing out allot of hurt.

Well that's allot Of the offensive stuff, lets talk defense and buffs, so the succubus has as standard a 4+ invun vs all attacks and not much else, considering that most of the weapons that are thrown at characters have a healthy ap the 4+ is about as good as you can expect, that said it does leave her open to allot of small arms fire that a more heavily armored character would shrug off all in all though I rate her defense as good.

Buff wise wych cult core units within 6" reroll 1's to wound in melee which will net you a bit more damage in a fight, it's a solid little buff so don't forget it's there. Debuff wise a succubus also has no escape so her + wych squad means 2 rolls and if you win either you are locked in melee this turn which is great news for you!.

Lelith Hesperax
Well here comes a bag of special rules :/. Well there's allot to be said about Lelith she's clocks in at 50% more than a regular succubus (technically she's a master so we will let her off) and stat wise has one more attack (unless you take adrenalight then you are exactly the same stats).

Her unique weapons a pair of butterknives Lelith's blades are +1 str, -3ap andddddd damage 1... they do mean that any 6 to hit gives 2 hits instead of one though (pff even a wrack can learn to do that) and combined with her warlord trait (kinda manditory if you take her) she can generate 4 hits for every 6 rolled (don't forget that procs blade artist). Ok so that's not too bad but you only generate 8 hits on average 2 less than a triptych whip succubus and in wounding her opponents she gets no help, those hits only convert too 4 wounds vs t4 or at most 3 wounds vs t5 not allot of damage, even if you are targeting a character and get rerolls on everything it is scarcely any more damage at 6 wounds and 4 wounds respectively that's really low for most succubus builds.

Defensively she's better than average with -1 to hit and a 4 up invun it's a nice addition but not overly impressive.

As a buff bot she lets cult of strife core units within 6 reroll 1's to hit and wound in melee, which I have to say is actually really good, turn 3 onward you can hit on 2+ with reroll 1's, it will help make back some of the damage deficit for taking Lelith.

Deadly dance is reskinned show stealer, I mean you have the master succubus keyword so I guess you should get the ability from it. I guess this means she unlocks blood brides.

Her natural perfection is ok, it's another way to amp her damage and keep her fighting, she can either charge if she fell back or fight again at the end of the phase if she destroyed any models. I mean yeah cool she can fight twice which means she might be able to kill 5 intercessors in a round... that's something allot of succubus builds can do trivially. I suppose she slaughters sisters of battle or aspect warriors with ease but vs those kind of opponents standard wychs outclass them so much that she's not needed.  

She's got no escape too I guess which is nice.

My problem with her is that she does so little for her points she hits like a wet noodle and that's a shame because her fluff is awesome damage 1 is so junk and makes no sense skillful enough to pick a weak spot in armour but can't hit anything vital apparently. Also her new model is well lets say a downgrade.

All in all I am not a fan and Lelith remains our worst character, until GW show her some love she will remain on the shelf (their store shelf).

Next time Urien Rakarth!

Have to say I'm thoroughly torn between a few builds, I'll probably mostly be facing marines so definitely need that 2D build with tryptich whips, landing 2 mortal wounds as a bonus seems great also. But as I'll be going cursed blade I'm also massively tempted by the "no you" build purely to sit across the table with a smug look on my face as my friends marine character gets blown up even if they win the fight hahaah.

Loving these little overviews overall!

No talk of Comp Edge? lol

amishprn86 wrote:

No talk of Comp Edge? lol

You serious?

amishprn86 wrote:

No talk of Comp Edge? lol

I alluded too it but no not mentioning it was purposeful.

Comp edge is great on other things, TripWHip for example, don't ignore it just b.c it had 1 broken build. Now with the nerf TripWHip with Comp Edge is one of the better builds.

True. For Cult of Stryfe. I normally go with Cursed Blade, but momentarily I try a custom cult for some Ld-bombing fun.

Something I'm curious about for those using a Master Succubus - how do you use Show Stealer?

Do you generally manage to blend anything she comes into contact with (and so you can use it to reposition), or do you use it to escape retaliation?

Part of the reason why I ask is that it initially seemed awesome that Succubi could potentially attack and then dart away before the enemy could retaliate, but then I started to wonder whether that would actually put you in a worse position (since the enemy can then shoot and charge you without needing to fall back).

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Something I'm curious about for those using a Master Succubus - how do you use Show Stealer?

Do you generally manage to blend anything she comes into contact with (and so you can use it to reposition), or do you use it to escape retaliation?

Part of the reason why I ask is that it initially seemed awesome that Succubi could potentially attack and then dart away before the enemy could retaliate, but then I started to wonder whether that would actually put you in a worse position (since the enemy can then shoot and charge you without needing to fall back).

It depends on a lot of things and it's true power is in its flexibility. As you say, jumping out of combat can be risky if your opponent has the resources to get to grips with her in their turn. If there is LoS blocking terrain, like a ruin, she can jump behind it and force your opponent to have to deal with her in melee, which is the exact opposite of what they want to do.

A combo I particularly like is keeping her close to a unit of wyches with Morvaine’s Agonizer. Both she and the wyches charge something and the wyches make sure to make base-to-base with enemy models and hit them with the agonizer so they can't fall back, but also leave space within the unit for her to jump to and move through.

The succubus hits her unit and then jumps into the wych squad. Then neither she nor the wyches can be targeted with shooting, and in your opponent's charge phase, she can heroically intervene and finish off the unit the wyches are stuck in with.

sekac wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Something I'm curious about for those using a Master Succubus - how do you use Show Stealer?

Do you generally manage to blend anything she comes into contact with (and so you can use it to reposition), or do you use it to escape retaliation?

Part of the reason why I ask is that it initially seemed awesome that Succubi could potentially attack and then dart away before the enemy could retaliate, but then I started to wonder whether that would actually put you in a worse position (since the enemy can then shoot and charge you without needing to fall back).

It depends on a lot of things and it's true power is in its flexibility. As you say, jumping out of combat can be risky if your opponent has the resources to get to grips with her in their turn. If there is LoS blocking terrain, like a ruin, she can jump behind it and force your opponent to have to deal with her in melee, which is the exact opposite of what they want to do.

A combo I particularly like is keeping her close to a unit of wyches with Morvaine’s Agonizer. Both she and the wyches charge something and the wyches make sure to make base-to-base with enemy models and hit them with the agonizer so they can't fall back, but also leave space within the unit for her to jump to and move through.

The succubus hits her unit and then jumps into the wych squad. Then neither she nor the wyches can be targeted with shooting, and in your opponent's charge phase, she can heroically intervene and finish off the unit the wyches are stuck in with.

Oh that's very cunning. I might well give that a go.

Thank you very much.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but since its about our beloved chiefmaster wyches, it should be all right.

I am thinking of equiping her with the dancers edge and precision blows wl trait. When I read the rules correctly,
every hitroll of 6+ does 2mw instead of rolling to wound. And every 6+ to wound ignores invul safes.
So basically that makes this combo a nice Termi-killer, right?
After all, with CB obsession and adrenalight, that would make 7 S6 AP-4 D2 attacks with boni at 6+ hit and wound roll.

Edit: And I can bring a blast pistol. Its always hillarious using it in close combat.

Zenotaph wrote:

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but since its about our beloved chiefmaster wyches, it should be all right.

I am thinking of equiping her with the dancers edge and precision blows wl trait. When I read the rules correctly,
every hitroll of 6+ does 2mw instead of rolling to wound. And every 6+ to wound ignores invul safes.
So basically that makes this combo a nice Termi-killer, right?
After all, with CB obsession and adrenalight, that would make 7 S6 AP-4 D2 attacks with boni at 6+ hit and wound roll.

Edit: And I can bring a blast pistol. Its always hillarious using it in close combat.

I like the blood glaive and precision blows even more. 7 attacks and any 6's are 3 mortal wounds, even death guard will die to that.

If you were using Dancer's Edge on a CoS Succubus, do you think Master Executioner might be better than Precision Blows?

You don't get the Mortal Wounds on 6s to hit, obviously, but you get a second chance at getting the pseudo Mortal Wounds (AP-4, no invulnerable saves) on 6s to wound, plus a chance at just getting more 'normal' wounds.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

If you were using Dancer's Edge on a CoS Succubus, do you think Master Executioner might be better than Precision Blows?

You don't get the Mortal Wounds on 6s to hit, obviously, but you get a second chance at getting the pseudo Mortal Wounds (AP-4, no invulnerable saves) on 6s to wound, plus a chance at just getting more 'normal' wounds.

only down side is vs death guard or other models with damage reduction which to be honest is the most attractive reason to take this build.

I really dont like Cult of Stryfe. I prefer Cursed Blade. And next Sunday we do a Burger&Bolter.
AdMech and Chaos Space Marines versus my ESE and another CSM.
Its going to be a fun game and kind of a lesson for one CSM player. So I dont want to play too cheesy.
But a Succubus without beeing a bit killy is a no go. My thought was, CB, dancers edge and precision blows is just enough.
After all, I only pay for the Master upgrade and the blast pistol. Not much for what she can do.

toldavf wrote:

only down side is vs death guard or other models with damage reduction which to be honest is the most attractive reason to take this build.

Oh, that's a good point.

I guess the only advantage is that it's unaffected by those 'Ignore Mortal Wounds on 5+' abilities, but I'm pretty sure they're a lot less common/popular anyway.

Zenotaph wrote:

I really dont like Cult of Stryfe. I prefer Cursed Blade.

I like aspects of the Cult of Strife. I like striking first, if only for fluff purposes, and I think it has some nice Warlord Traits.

However, I'm not a fan of Strife getting a load of extra stuff just because. It makes things awkward to my mind.

Also, whilst I'm sure Cult of Strife is better because of all the extra gubbins, I find myself increasingly drawn to the simplicity and efficiency of Cursed Blade. Because sometimes I can't can't be bothered faffing around with dozens of extra stratagems.

Zenotaph wrote:

Its going to be a fun game and kind of a lesson for one CSM player. So I dont want to play too cheesy.
But a Succubus without beeing a bit killy is a no go. My thought was, CB, dancers edge and precision blows is just enough.

Out of interest, do you ever use Traitor's Embrace? I love the idea of a 60pt Suicide-Succubus.

I havent used it even once. It sounds nice, but it is used just once per match. When the Succubus dies.
Id rather use a relic to kill or to prevent getting killed.  But I really would like to see it in action.

To the matter Strife or not: It seems to me, they get all the goodies just because they are Leliths personal bitches.
Excuse the language, but honestly, it fits. Hopefully, I dont get expelled for that.

Cursed Blade has some nice benefits without beeing overpowered by mere favor.
The S+1 alone is great, making the choice of drug abuse easier. Also MW on 6+ saves is just cool.  
The cult strat is a bit of an oddball. A special overwatch for a unit no one sane wants to charge.
But hey, when someone really does? 5D6 attacks wounding on 2+ with AP-1? I am sure some will hit. On 6...

All in all? A very beautyfully designed Wych Cult. I would choose it over CoS anytime. Really!!

i totally agree with you!
And never forget that Cursed Blades allow you to save some good money for not playing CoS and still be close to if not better

Because everything in the cult abilities or stratagems are melee oriented, CB only makes everything simply better!

I think that custom cult berserker fugue is great too!

The reasoning is that your succubus and stuff with poison weapons also profit from this trait.

When it comes to custom Cults, I like Trophy Takers and Precise Killers.
Combined with Dark Creed and Poisoned Tongue, this is the ultimate Ld-Bomb.
Grisly Trophies, PGL and additional Incubi are mandatory for this. I suggest DC Raiders and PT Venoms.
You force Ld tests with 2D6 taking the worst, have -1 to attrition and spice it with LD debuffs.
Of course, it highly depends on your enemy, but its a fun way to play.

Zenotaph wrote:

When it comes to custom Cults, I like Trophy Takers and Precise Killers.
Combined with Dark Creed and Poisoned Tongue, this is the ultimate Ld-Bomb.
Grisly Trophies, PGL and additional Incubi are mandatory for this. I suggest DC Raiders and PT Venoms.
You force Ld tests with 2D6 taking the worst, have -1 to attrition and spice it with LD debuffs.
Of course, it highly depends on your enemy, but its a fun way to play.

That looks quite fun.

Out of interest, would you run it as a RSR or as Patrols?

I run patrols. Not really a fan of RSR. Dont know why, but i find it, well, unappealing.

Zenotaph wrote:

I run patrols. Not really a fan of RSR. Dont know why, but i find it, well, unappealing.

I'm not a fan of it either, tbh. For me it just seems to be filled with feels-bad stuff:
- It's easier to give HQs Warlord Traits . . . but you're locked into 3 HQs which have to be an Archon, a Haemonculus and a Succubus (as someone who wants to use multiple Succubi I can't say I'm a fan of this).
- The Archon's aura affects Blades for Hire now . . . except Mandrakes for some reason (which are the one I'd most want my Archon to buff).
- Black Heart gives part of its bonus to Blades for Hire . . . but no other Kabal gets to do the same.
- Black Heart also gets to buff Blades for Hire with its Writ . . . but this makes the Archon a colossal mess with one aura buffing one set of units and a second aura buffing an entirely different set of units with very little overlap.

It also leads to some interactions that are plain weird. For example, a Succubus can never buff Beast units because they're actually counted as Blades for Hire (because an Ur-Ghul can be a Kabal unit but beasts can't be Cult units). However, a Black Heart Archon with a Writ is able to buff Beasts. Apparently warp-beasts won't ever listen to a Succubus (no one has ever wanted a Beast Master HQ, right?) but they will not only listen to an Archon reading the words of Vect, they'll understand and draw strength from them.